MSD Ready To Run distributor lies!

Duke Mk1a

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Working with my timing light to do some checks as I am getting indications of too much timing under some profiles.

I have 13 initial, 21 mechanical and SUPPOSEDLY (MSD documentation) 10 degrees of vacuum.

The vacuum can is actually pulling 20 degrees of advance. So at idle I was sitting at 33 degrees of advance. Of course you all know that the vacuum advance goes way with the drop of vacuum under acceleration.

It also meant that I was pulling 54 degrees while cruising. That is a no go for me.

So I did some research and it is a common issue with the MSD can and they do not offer a adjustable can. So my option was to lock it out or "modify" the distributor to my liking.

The answer was 15 minutes worth of modification to a small piece of sheet metal to make a stop tab. Seen here bolted down (with blue loctite thank you). Now as the vacuum advance rotates the sensor mechanism at the bottom of the disro, it now comes up against the stop and walla, only 10 degree of vacuum advance. I am now at 23 degrees of advance at idle and 44 cruising.

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the_tool_man

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196
Nice work, Duke.

I am planning to get one of those distributors. I'll file this one away for later.

Regards,
John.
 

Moondoggie

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569
Duke,

Now you can see why I would never run an MSD anything in one of my race motors.... I know you like that extra advance at cruising speeds but you will
pay dearly for it. My advice with your 347 stroker motor is to get yourself
a good HYPO 289-302 mechanical distributor and put a Crane module
in it and set your timing at 33-34 degrees max timing.

Moondoggie
 

Duke Mk1a

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set your timing at 33-34 degrees max timing.

Thats what I have now 34 max mechanical.

I also have modern billet construction with 0 shaft wobble.
Electronic (magnetic) pick up.
12V to my coil
Built in REV limiter set at 6500
Balls on accuracy signal going to my modern 8000 rpm Auto Meter tachometer.
Adjustable max timing.
Adjustable timing curve.

Better fuel economy pulling an additional 10 degrees of timing while at cruise.

You will never convince me to run my 450 HP engine with a 45 year old distributor.

Moondoggie - I knew you would have something to say as you are not a MSD fan. Its all good, knowledge is good for all.
 

michael-king

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I had always thought about going down the Crane path, use a CRANE billet distributor and run it with a Crane multispark controller, but never got round to it.. still on the cards to maybe just get the Crane controller and use it to run the Mallory unilite LED setup i have.

Then again.. every time i read Buck's posts about the durapark, i think why not do that?
 

Moondoggie

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Thats what I have now 34 max mechanical.


Better fuel economy pulling an additional 10 degrees of timing while at cruise.

You will never convince me to run my 450 HP engine with a 45 year old distributor.

Moondoggie - I knew you would have something to say as you are not a MSD fan. Its all good, knowledge is good for all.

Duke......

That picture is of a NOS HYPO distributor which you put a Crane Ignition module in and the Timing curve you get by changing springs and it's bullet proof....
THat extra 10 degrees works great on low performance motors but let's face it
you are pushing the envelope with your 450 hp stroked 302. Detonation which you can't hear for just a few seconds when you transition from cruise to partial power will kill that motor.
As for MSD stuff the quality just isn't there and I used to be an MSD fan until I got tired of sending the stuff back for repairs.

Moondoggie
 

kbecker

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I have a dual point distribuator that came on my tiger, so I should be able to to use the crane or similar kit. Thanks
 

hottigr

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My factory dual point mechanical distributor has been trouble free for the past 25 years- other than routine points and condenser replacement. I don't spin my motor past 6k and don't have any point bounce. I guess I'm from the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' school on this one- these things still work o.k.!
 

Duke Mk1a

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THat extra 10 degrees works great on low performance motors but let's face it you are pushing the envelope with your 450 hp stroked 302.

Don't agree. My engine is producing ~40 HP getting the Tiger down the road at cruise. My engine is no different than a 260 moving down the road at 70 MPH. Actually, it runs much cooler being a roller engine with aluminum heads.

When the loud pedal is used and the engine develops high HP, max timing is 34 degrees all day long......with a modern distro producing a very hot spark with a rev limiter for additional protection. That 10 degrees of vacuum timing is gone in milliseconds. In a malfunction of the vacuum can, no timing is pulled.
 

Moondoggie

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I used to think the same way but some where I have a picture of a very expensive forged piston with a hole burned right thru it....let me see if I can find it.....

Moondoggie
 

Duke Mk1a

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I used to think the same way but some where I have a picture of a very expensive forged piston with a hole burned right thru it....let me see if I can find it.....

Moondoggie

Awwwwwwwwwww COME ON.....you burnt a hole in a piston under cruise conditions? Talking throttle at ~15% cruising down the road. That is not possible.

If so, it was a air/fuel ratio issue and not timing.

My AFRs are monitor real time with a WB O2 sensor and gauge.
 

Moondoggie

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569
Yup burned it right thru...this was not on my Tiger but a radical
stroked 427 side oiler which even had electronic ignition by MSD
and a knock sensor designed to take care of those milliseconds you mentioned. But you are okay...there is no way you are making anywhere near the horsepower...you know you just can't trust MSD stuff and gas is cheap...
Pertronics isn't much better either..that old Hypo Ford distributor ran Le Mans
for years and never broke down lot's of other stuff but never the Distributor
in GT 350's, Cobras and GT40's. Never heard of a MSD anything finishing at Le Mans...ever...your okay

Moondoggie
 

Tiger tamer

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318
Duke,
what coil are you using ?. I am using a MSD distributer on my HO engine as well. Probably need to change the coil.
 

Duke Mk1a

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1,673
Duke,
what coil are you using ?. I am using a MSD distributor on my HO engine as well. Probably need to change the coil.

I was using a MSD blaster 2 coil. Last time I had it off it leaked all of its oil out on the table due to a crack in the case. I just put a spare I had on, it may be a blaster also, and all is well.
 

Moondoggie

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Messages
569
I was using a MSD blaster 2 coil. Last time I had it off it leaked all of its oil out on the table due to a crack in the case. I just put a spare I had on, it may be a blaster also, and all is well.

Okay let's put this into perspective....You had to lock out the vacum advance because it didn't work correctly and then the coil was defective and leaked oil all over the place. MSD sure mades good stuff !! I went thru a half dozen
ignition boxes before the little light shined for me and the final blow came when I took the last box apart and found jumper wires and cold solder joints on the board that looked like a two year old had done the work....

Moondoggie
 

Duke Mk1a

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You had to lock out the vacuum advance because it didn't work correctly

See OP, it has a stop to limit advance to 10 degrees, it is not locked out.


Ok, OK Moondawg, you hate MSD...got it. Some of us don't hate MSD (yet). No need to muck up threads with your MSD hateing.

I'll just leave this here -

The only Ford that came with no vacuum advance, though, was the 289 High Performance. The 390GT, 428 CobraJet, BOSS 302, BOSS 429, BOSS 351, all had vacuum advance.
C9ZF-12127-E.jpg
 

TigerBlue

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Duke Mk1a

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Thanks Rick..........Ooops, dropped this here:


"At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts."
 
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