Tail light bulb recommendation

This thread had got me curious about the led bulbs so the other day, I was on the Princess auto site and they had a 'cyber Monday' type sale with free shipping on everything ! I bought a couple 1157's in white for $6.99 each ( reg. 14.99 ) .They also had red ones for $2.99 ( reg. 9.99) but were sold out.
They had the lumen rating listed as 17-20 LM for the white and 3.8 LM for the red...
Rick, was there any rating on the reds you bought? BTW, these only have 9 led's... I'll try one out and let you know what I think...

Jim
B382000446

Hi all,
ToyTrainGuy got me interested in this thread over on the TEAE forum... so I did some experimenting, but more on that later. First, a couple of general notes:
White LEDs shouldn't be used behind red or amber lenses. This is because white LEDs are actually blue, violet or ultraviolet LEDs with a phosphorescent material in front of the LED. The output from the LED causes the phosphorescent material to emit white-ish light, with a blue or purple undercast from the actual LED. The LED itself doesn't put out very much red or orange light, so if you put it behind an taillight lens you'll get very little output.

A regular incandescent bulb puts out a given number of lumens based on its wattage and, generally, on the filament material and how close to the edge design the bulb. An 1157 bulb with 8/25 watts will put out about 10 lumens per watt, so about 250 lumens total. This, of course, is spread over the visible spectrum, but only the red/orange part is of any use to us in the taillights.

I checked into high efficiency (red) power LEDs and found some that would put out over 50 lumens per Watt, and with a power rating of 1 watt. They're actually pretty small and depend on the circuit board for cooling, but because they put out so much light per watt, you don't have to run very many of them. I built a circular array of five LEDs and a bombproof constant current control circuit, and then configured it to put out 4 watts from the LEDs. In this picture the LED lamp is in the left upper (direction indicator) position, while regular brake lights are on in the lowers.

It's hard to see how much brighter the LED is because it saturates the camera. Easier to see is what gets projected onto the garage door:

With the LED lamp off you can see what the incandescent brake lights contribute:

The left and right difference is because I have an inside-screw style lens on the left, and an outside-screw style lens on the right taillight...

So it is possible to dramatically outdo the stock taillights, at a lower power consumption than the incandescent lights, but you need a system that is designed for the purpose. I'm impressed enough with this that I'll make up some circuit boards, but I don't know if it makes sense to try to cram a light system like this into a standard bayonet bulb fitting. One thing that is lost on some of the low-end bulb vendors is that a 25 watt bulb operates at a filament temperature of thousands of degrees and even the glass can reach over 100 degrees C, but an electronic LED circuit shouldn't operate above about 50 degrees C or you'll drastically shorten the life of the parts. A bayonet bulb fitting isn't designed to radiate away the heat, so even a couple of watts of input power will cause things to get pretty warm. And the low-cost LED bulbs just have a resistor to regulate the LED current, which doesn't protect against any kind of voltage fluctuations in the system.

Sorry about the long rant. It's good to see the 1157 replacement bulb guys get brighter but I don't think they can provide a solution on the caliber of the current OEM LED taillights in that form factor. However, by offering the stuff they do, they put unrealistic expectations in people's heads for what a LED taillight system should cost. I think it would be cool to build these lights for the Tiger but I don't think many people would go in at $200 for a full set of four.

While playing around searching for a related LED item for the Tiger I came across Brian at BMC British Automobile http://bmcautos.com who have built after market LED units for MGs and XKEs and others. I asked if possibly the MG unit would work in the Tiger but the MG lens is wider so won't fit in the Tiger/Alpine lens.

I asked about the possibility of getting LED units for the Tiger and some of the concerns addressed here on the forum.

THE AMOUNT OF LIGHT GIVEN OFF BY AN L.E.D. BOARD VS. REPLACMENT L.E.D. BULBS AND INCANDESCENT BULBS-

Our replacement systems have parking on both portions and we can design brake on one piece or two parts with turn signal in a portion of one of the two boards. This means you can choose to use brake on the ENTIRE tail lamp or half. Same with the parking- entire unit or half. Generally, we have amber (orange) behind the red lenses for the turn signal. When the amber comes on, it comes through as just that with very little [red(?) - JB].

Going back to the replacement bulbs that are generic units, these have nothing on a board designed to put light behind the car. For instance, the single MGB upper board produces more brake light than turning both rear brake lights on. The difference can be seen in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_sLep6kgE8 but I do not have a video that really shows one board over two but the last minute of this video shows one boards strength… This is about 3-4X the power of a standard unit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkyNeeR4TB4 Watch the last 1 minute- you can see a demonstration of the light but the first video does show how I would think the LED set would work best for the Tiger- the MGB type with either both or one half brake. The original MGB, only had half the brake light area and since each board produces far in excess of the original and now we have two per side- no one can say they did not see our brake lights.

Of the products we offer, the LED was the most welcome product to my own car (an MGB) for both safety as well as appearance. One point in the video for the two MGBs, you will see the side view is increased substantially. The MGB tail lamp has a side profile that the Tiger really does not but even a flatter lens such as the flat Austin Healey (MGTD, Etc.) LED has a far superior amount of light going sideways even though there is no external depth to the lens. There are a few cars like this- some of the Sunbeam lenses, Nash Metro and other cars. The lens itself acts well to disperse the additional light output.

[If additional light is requested the foil between the upper and lower lamps - JB] can be removed for additional lighting and the reflection rate is still pretty good with the clear LEDs behind the entire lens.

[Please note - JB] LEDs do NOT take to video very well at all. This means that unfortunately they literally have to be seen in person. The human eye picks them up quite differently than the camera. Sounds cliché but factual.

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TURN SIGNAL WARM UP/SHUT DOWN-

I can tell you when I see an ambulance or other emergency vehicles turn signal with instant on- instant off, I don't like it as much as the filament growing warmer and then the cool down time. The way to achieve the lights in the rear to not have that instant on instant off effect can be done… With standard 1157 bulbs in front and a standard 2 or 3 prong turn signal flasher, the LED turn signals in the rear will come on instantly but they will shut down and look like a standard incandescent bulb as they shut off. Think of it like water in a long garden hose- if someone shuts the valve off when you're spraying the water, it may take a few seconds to realize that the water has been shut off. If we use a different flasher with the extra earth (ground) wire, you will have the instant shut off effect. Instant on really cannot be easily altered but is far less noticeable than the instant off effect anyways.

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LOAD OF L.E.D.'S ON EXISTING WIRING SYSTEM VS. EXISTING LIGHTING-

The LED boards on average have reduced the load to the car by 80% or the other way of saying it is that they take 20% of the power of your existing lights. On parking lamps, consider this as well- 99% of parking/headlamp switches have one power wire in and then all the power runs out to the headlamps AND all the parking lamps. Since most early cars such as yours probably do not have 4 side marker lights, we will not count those but what you certainly do have are the following parking lamp bulbs: Dash lamps- tachometer (1 or 2 bulbs), speedometer (1-2), petrol gauge, temp gauge, and more gauges. Possibly a dash light that is also connected to the parking switch. Possible centre console switches and gauges, two front park lamps, two rear parking lamps, two license plate lamps, and possible that some people have even installed a set of fog/driving lamps on the switch. As strange as it may sound, a person can improve headlamp power without adding relays by installing LEDs on all the parking lamp circuit thus reducing the draw on the parking lamp system including the head lamp switch by an average of 80%+.

It may be worth mentioning that we produce both positive and negative earth systems.

If memory serves, the MGB lens is wider than the Tiger/Alpine. We've had a few Tigers and Alpines in here over the last 12 years…
Our manufacturer has one tail lamp type from a Sunbeam ready for prototyping but I believe the Alpine and maybe the Tiger had at least two different types of lens.

If we had 10 pre-orders for the system, we will manufacture boards for the lens type! Prices depend on the complexity of the system but this is what I would think will be comparable:
MGB boards with no secondary board behind the first unit due to space within the systems are priced just under $192 for the 4 board set and that Includes shipping to your door.
If the lens designed is like some of the other very tight systems, it may run similar to the XK-E type lights here:
http://bmcautos.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19&products_id=175
(look at the double board design in the photo)
The price for four boards and the effects would be very much like the MGB or E-type mentioned…

If the price and quantity is something you think is possible, I would love to work with you. Quantities of 10 is a pretty low expectation so if you are on forums and can have interested parties email us info@bmcautos.com we could get these in the works.

Brian,

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From my discussion with Brian I believe due to the limited space behind the lens something similar to the MGB or E-type would be required and is in the $235 range.

Again they require only 10 pre-orders to get started via email at info@bmcautos.com

Disclaimer: No affiliation of course and personally I don't doubt the info stated or the manufacturing ability but ask them any questions you have and do your own homework and just to CMA - let the buyer beware.

Hi Guy's,

Interesting thread and I am interested in the outcomes. Being in the electrical field I am very interested in where LED technology has come in recent times. We do need to remember though that the LED replacements are an alternative to the filament style and not necessarily brighter. As with home lighting, the compact fluorescent globes or led globes are generally equivalent in light (lux). As already pointed out, they draw much less current and run significantly cooler. Even if the outcome of the conversion is equal in brightness and you don't mind a more modern look, the benefits are hard to pass up.

Regards, Robin.

Resurrecting an old thread...
I built some boards using 8 LEDs for turn signal; 8 LEDs for brake; and 12 leds for brake/tail light function. I used Cree XP-E and XP-C LEDs... their lumens/watt rating is nothing short of awesome, and that means you can run them at half (or less) of their rated current and still get lots of output with great reliability.
Overall, I'm pulling 150mA at 12V for taillight (2W or about 1/4 an 1157 bulb), 1A at 12V on brake (12W or about half an 1157 bulb), and 400mA at 12V on turn (about 4.8W or about 1/5 of an 1157). The idea is to be power efficient but also to be much brighter than what the standard bulb will get you, within the limits of what the federal regulations allow... it's possible to go too bright.

In the pictures, I was generally shooting through three sheets of 20% transmissive film... the camera still saturates even though less than one percent of the illumination is getting through. I used sheetmetal shadow masks to visually separate the tail/brake/turn portions; but the tail light is driven at higher intensity when the brake lights are turned on. When the taillight function only is on, the turn and brake circles are dark, but the lens is illuminated around the perimeter by the 12 LEDs.

The camera doesn't do the visual effect justice... I'll try and get some on-the-car pictures in a week or so.

I have no doubt that an LED array of some kind can be built to upgrade the brightness of both tail and stop lights! I just don't know if I'm ready to pony up $100-$200 for a set!

My buddy just bought another variation of the 'cheapie' LED 1157 replacements from e-Bay so I thought I'd hook up a few again to see what we get... The ones he got emit a blue light rather than red or white. I used a stock 1157, another 'white' LED one that I bought last year, and his new one. You can see the difference in the pic below... yes, the one on the right IS lit!

Obviously, not the right application for a 'blue' bulb although out of the housing it IS very bright. I hate to think how many thousands of these bulbs have been bought and then go directly into the trash as they don't perform.

Looking at specs for the 1157 'stock' bulbs, they are rated somewhere between 21 and 31 cp on 'high'... depending on who's selling them. I got an amp reading of 1.96 on the one I tried so @ 12v, that's about 23.5 watts... center 9LED bulb was 28.4 mA. and the 12LED one was 23.4 mA.

Just to try a new ( cheaper ) direction here, I've ordered some 1157HP bulbs made by CandlePower...under $2 each. They are rated @ 50/14 cp so I'm pretty sure they will be brighter! The downside is that's going to be more load on the stop lamp circuit ( 2.4 amps each ) when you hit the brakes ! The good news is that they are the ONLY 2 bulbs on that circuit looking at the stock wiring diagram. I DO have the luxury of running them off a relay ( if needed ) in my setup as I have a 6-fuse panel already mounted in the trunk fed directly from the battery which now feeds my fuel pump and stereo amp. I'll post pics when they arrive...



On another note, I was reading about the panel lamp circuit on an MGB today and was surprised when they said there's actually 19 bulbs fed from that circuit!! It was also pointed out that the wire that feeds that switch is the same wire that feeds the headlight switch . Looking at the Tiger, it's very similar with NO fuse in the circuit! The same wire feeds the headlight switch and then on to the panel switch which feeds all of the gauge lamps, clock feed plus the front and back lights... that's 13 lamps plus the clock on my car. It hasn't been an issue but en'light'ening just the same


Jim
B382000446

Theo_S said:

I built some boards using 8 LEDs for turn signal; 8 LEDs for brake; and 12 leds for brake/tail light function.

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OK Theo, where and how much money do I send to get a set?

Does the OEM blinker work with the LEDs.

66TigerMK1A said:

I have no doubt that an LED array of some kind can be built to upgrade the brightness of both tail and stop lights! I just don't know if I'm ready to pony up $100-$200 for a set!

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My agreed value $64,000 Tiger NOT getting hit from behind is worth $100-$200 for a set.

Duke Mk1a said:

My agreed value $64,000 Tiger NOT getting hit from behind is worth $100-$200 for a set.

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I can't argue with that... I'm just wondering if I can do the same thing ( more or less ) for $5 !!

That would be including the cost of a couple of 40 CP 1156's (actually 2396's ) for the turn signals vs the stock 32 CP ( 2.1 amp vs 1.67 amp )


Jim
B382000446

Recent article in Hot Rod magazine indicated Ron Francis has dual filament No.1157 bulbs (PN B-1077) that are reported to be twice as bright as stock bulbs. 50 and 14 candlepower - stock rated at 32 and 3.I haven't looked into them yet but plan on doing so. The information is contained in an article on '56 Chevy lighting problems.

burnstiger said:

Recent article in Hot Rod magazine indicated Ron Francis has dual filament No.1157 bulbs (PN B-1077) that are reported to be twice as bright as stock bulbs. 50 and 14 candlepower - stock rated at 32 and 3.I haven't looked into them yet but plan on doing so. The information is contained in an article on '56 Chevy lighting problems.

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Those are the same bulbs I've ordered but got mine from a different source ...
CandlePower also sells them for 1/4 the Ron Francis price... 2 / $3.50 !
http://store.candlepower.com/taillights.html
They also list the brighter 40 cp 1156 style for turn lamps but I found them (2396's ) locally...
I think they'll be fine for my amber lenses but for a bit more $$ there are 45 cp (incandescent )and even 50-55 cp (halogen )


Jim
B3820000446

LED stop/tail bulbs & turn lights

Am I correct in assuming that off the shelf replacement LED stop/tail bulbs will not work on our Tigers without modification to the wiring?

I have tried bulbs from 2 sources here in the UK, neither worked on the tail light but the stop worked fine.

The indicator/turn light works but flashes incorrectly with the standard flasher unit. I'm going to try a modern flasher unit which I hope will allow them to work correctly.

LED Boards

Any update on available LED Boards for the Tiger. I just put a set in my Mustang and the difference is incredible,

Brake Lights

Has anyone ever converted the 1156 upper turn signal socket to an 1157 socket so that a second brake light could be added to each side?

sockets

TAH_Tiger said:

Has anyone ever converted the 1156 upper turn signal socket to an 1157 socket so that a second brake light could be added to each side?

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I converted the upper socket to an 1157, but I did it so there's two tail lights. Bottom bulb is tail and stop, top is tail and turn. I have the amber lenses on top. I'm using the 1157 LED bulbs from superbriteleds.com

Bob Knight
B9471705
B9471929

1157 x2

Bob Knight said:

I converted the upper socket to an 1157, but I did it so there's two tail lights. Bottom bulb is tail and stop, top is tail and turn. I have the amber lenses on top. I'm using the 1157 LED bulbs from superbriteleds.com

Bob Knight
B9471705
B9471929

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Bob,

Did you use a load resister for the turn signal?
Which 1157 from them did you use. Seems like the $19.95 bulb is brighter than the $24.95 one.