Yet another Alger...

Jeff F

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After 17 years with our "family heirloom" Tiger, I decided that I should get an Alpine/Alger to tinker with before I do something to the Tiger that I shouldn't. As much as I'm always thinking about how the Tiger could be "improved", I really do enjoy it as it is, 260 2BBL and all.

I had been pondering this for some time but hadn't taken any action towards it. Doing a conversion from a stock Alpine seemed like a lot of work-- especially a lot of body work that I don't really like doing. When I would see Algers for sale they didn't do much for me. They were either cars that had been been Tiger fakes, or a kludge of poor workmanship and goofy parts. I never did come across a "nice" one, but even so I was looking for a project and not a finished car.

A few months ago a car popped up on ebay that piqued my interest. It was an Alpine that had a EFI Ford 2.3 and an automatic, but said that it had Tiger sheetmetal. I was busy at the time and didn't pursue it, but it didn't sell. It was relisted and still didn't sell. Fast forward a few months and I wondered if it was still around. Contacted the seller and sure enough it was. I went to Florida to look at it and it seemed like just what I was looking for. It had all the Tiger sheetmetal (tunnel, inner fenders and braces, exhaust pass-throughs and pass-unders) as well as a Tiger rack, and had just had a lot of work done-- new weatherstripping, dash pad, rebuilt rack and front suspension with all new bushings and joints, rebuilt calipers with SS pistons and all new rubber lines, gas tanks cleaned with new hoses...

So now the project begins. I plan on driving it around for a bit while I decide what exactly I want to do with it. I hope to use this thread to get opinions and bounce ideas off those of you that have been through modifying your Tigers. This should be fun...

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cobrakidz

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I was talking to the seller at length too, seemed like a good start point for an Alger---good luck with it and have fun.
 

michael-king

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depends on budget alloy block 363 stroker with 5 or 6 speed and a watts link rear end would be fun... and a handful! :D:D

In some respects the tiger tunnel is a bit of a disadvantage... why beat on an original tiger tunnel when you can fab your own and put a really good modern 6 speed in it and sell the original tiger tunnel to cover costs?

The other option would be to build a stroker rootes 1725.. take it out 2120cc twin weber DCOE's or throttle body injection... put a rootes 4 speed + OD in it and alpine steering box.... :eek: :D
 

HolyCat

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Paint and Front Suspension

I'm surprised that no one suggested you paint the car everyone's favorite color - Moonstone.:eek:

In all seriousness, I feel the weak link in Tigers is the steering and front suspension. If money is no object, look into one of Dale's front end and sell the Tiger front cross member and rack. You certainly won't be worrying about originality.
 

Jeff F

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Well, I was planning on a Moonstone painted torque arm, if I can get the necessary permissions. :rolleyes:

I did consider alternate drivetrains but decided that since it does have a "real tiger tunnel" and steering, it wouldn't make sense to put something in that didn't require the tiger tunnel & steering, or would require me to modify these parts further. For this car, a SBF and "no-cut" 5 speed are the plan. A different drivetrain will have to wait for the next one. :D

That said, I've never driven an Alpine, and I've only driven this one in my driveway so far, but I really like how light the steering is. Makes me think about how nice it would be with something lighter than the iron-head, iron-intake, iron-toploader Tiger.

Not sure exactly what to do with the engine. I have a stock 302 that I will probably start with, which will allow me to get all the mounting, transmission, accessories, cooling, etc. figured out without adding the complication of an engine build. Then once it's up and running I'll come up with another engine for it.

I do have a 525HP, 7500RPM 331 (4.125 bore x 3.10 stroke) and a TKO600RR that is currently in a road race Mustang. While using that engine is tempting, it's really not a great engine for a street car. Not to mention it has high-port heads that would keep me from using any off the shelf headers.

Realistically, I have other fast cars/race cars, and for this I want a nice driver. That means sufficient power (350ish?), good torque, smooth idle, no cooling issues (maybe even A/C!). I'll probably make it fuel injected with a 4bbl style manifold so it looks like a carb setup.

The suspension is another head-scratcher. I don't know that much about Dale's suspension, but the impression I get is that while it is an improvement over what is there it's still a compromise built around the ability to be a bolt-in to a Tiger without cutting anything up. Since I'm not worried about that on this car I have the option to go further with it.
 

Warren

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Whie

I remember the car on ePay too, I thought it was Moonstone, I mean White.
I would be nice to know how the little motor drives on the stock suspension.

I have just got a car with a early Dale front end with the MG rack and even though I have driven another MG racked car TAC 82 drives much nicer, BUT I agree with Dave. If you are going to drive it and may end up looking and parking in a tight spot, Dale new front end would be killer.

I would also venture a good guess that the stock front end is of considerable value to those who have a early other front end or want to have all stock bits waiting in the corner of the garage for the next caretaker.

I hope you visit Alpine site and look at their repowered Alpines
Good score,
 

Jeff F

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OK, enough with the small talk and onto the greasy bits.

Got the car registered and drove it around a bit. What a turd of a powertrain! I'm sure it doesn't help that the TV cable for the trans isn't doing anything (hooked up, but not in a way that it actually moves) so it shifts kind of goofy. Don't know what kind of power this engine is rated at (haven't figured out exactly what year it is, but I'm quite sure it's from a 87-93 Mustang) but I figured with the 3.89 Alpine axle it wouldn't be too bad... but geez is this thing slow!

The rest of the car seems OK. Steering and suspension are good and tight. A little shaky at speed, but I'm going to swap on the wheels and tires from the Tiger to verify that it's just a balance issue.

I think the first thing to decide about is the transmission, and the obvious choice to me is the TKO600. Considering that I don't have an existing toploader I can't imagine going that route, and the T5 option looks to be almost as expensive with many more downsides. Anything else to consider?

There is a possibility is to use the TKO600 out of my Fox Mustang if I decide to take the powertrain out of that, which would lower the cost quite a bit compared to other options.

Thoughts?
 

Forrest39

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Sold my Alpine today...

Jeff,
I was heading down the same road and found a really nice Alpine to statr with as an Alpine-V8 project. But after a long and very appreciated talk with Bill Martin, I reversed course before stating fatal damage.
Sounds like you have a good recipe in mind. I was planning a TKO-600 gear box. Bill sells the bolt in kit for $5k-ish IIRC. Without concern for an original firewall, I planned to get one from summit racing for $2.5k and add on from there. A T-5 would be just enough for your engine, but I wanted room to grow down the road. Modern driveline has some way to improve the shifting to make it smoother.

For the engine, I was planning a 306 crate motor from Summit racing. Its 340hp I think and about 350ft/lbs torque. I have since read that the balance of the crate motor isn't the best so maybe that option isn't the best.

I sold my SV Alpine at a $1k loss today.. but I think it went to better home. :(

I had done a few months of researching and sourcing parts, so I'll keep an eye on this thread and something relevant pops up, I'll chime in!

Cheers, -Kevin
 

Jeff F

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Bill sent me a pretty detailed quote with all of the parts that make up the kit. Excluding the bellhousing and clutch parts, and shipping, it's around $4300. Of that, approx $2400 is the trans itself, $900 is the shifter conversion, and the remaining $1000 is crossmember, driveshaft, and other misc. parts.

I actually like the idea of having a T5 trans. I've had plenty of them in late model mustangs and they hold up fine if you aren't really beating them up. They also shift nice (when built right), are light, and relatively inexpensive. The problem is that the kit with the unique tailhousing is expensive ($2250 with no clutch or bellhousing, plus the trans; $4045 completely assembled with trans) and you end up with something that has compromises due to the trans being rotated. At that price it doesn't make sense.

I think that if I were in the position where I had to modify the tunnel anyway, I'd go with a T5 mounted with a Fox or SN95 bellhousing.
 

Warren

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Shifters

Seen some really let's say interesting articulated T-5 set ups if you can get by their prosthetic look. Since you would be hiding the cuts under a carpet, I wouldn't worry about them too much.

Guys that get upset when you ask to pull carpets back in a Tiger sale inspection equal caution.

Its really a shame a long time member sold off a T-5 in the box for cheap.
I know of a couple toploaders for sale and there is an extensive wide ratio rear end up grade thread. Fatal to the wallet or the Alpine ? Buy one that's together. I know of a certain red converted Alpine with water wing like flares that could be for sale, as pretty soon his honeymoon with that car will be over soon I'd bet.. eh CobraKidz?
 

Jeff F

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Here's another topic for discussion... front cover, water pump, and accessory drive.

Let's say I'm starting from scratch. What would the preferred combination of parts be? I was thinking that a modern serpentine setup with a reverse rotation water pump and spring tensioner might be nice. The 5.0 SN95/Explorer parts are shorter than the Fox parts, which would free up space for a big honkin' electric fan.

Or, go with an electric water pump, then all I need to do is spin an alternator...
 

Jeff F

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Well, I guess no opinions on that one!

Here's another one-- seats. I'm planning for this car to have a rollbar, 3-point belts, and some "modern" seats. Any thoughts on where to source them? I would want them to not have airbags or power adjustments, be a width that is reasonable for the car, and is "low"-- meaning that the seating position (h-point, as we called it in the auto industry) is low compared to the mounting point. My Tiger has old, sagging seats that are about right; my Alpine has newer seats that are a little high for my tastes.

I'm thinking early Miata, S2000... any other ideas?
 

Warren

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Ok ok

Whatever rotation works best with a mini A/C compressor. As for the seats the orange tiger of Defsailor has a nice set shape and size wise, pics in recent auto x thread.
 

Erich

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One of the past Lord Rootes trophy winners had Ferarri 308 seats. Looked great, fit well and were comfortable.
 

Erich

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Here's another topic for discussion... front cover, water pump, and accessory drive.

Let's say I'm starting from scratch. What would the preferred combination of parts be? I was thinking that a modern serpentine setup with a reverse rotation water pump and spring tensioner might be nice. The 5.0 SN95/Explorer parts are shorter than the Fox parts, which would free up space for a big honkin' electric fan.

Or, go with an electric water pump, then all I need to do is spin an alternator...

I think you will find that NOTHING is more compact than the stock tiger front dress.
Serpentine belts are wider than V belts. You don't have room for even an extra 3/8 inch down by the rack.

The tightest fitting point is the clearance between rack and crank mounted v belt pulley. A belt barely fits thru the gap.
The stock tiger crank pulley bolts directly to the face of the crankshaft damper. Compare that to an old mustang where the pulley is several inches deep.

If you completely redo the cross member, mount the rack down inside the cross member and use rear steering arms instead of front, you might create some space.


For electric fan, think pusher.
 

Jeff F

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Does anyone have a source for the engine hanger brackets? Either real Tiger, or a replacement part that is functionally the same? I can make them, but don't want to "reinvent the hanger" if I don't have to.
 
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