**Changed direction**'65 Sunbeam Alpine 13B-MSP rotary engine build blog

[sierra_alpine]

Hello All,

After a lot of conversations with the folks on here, so much googling it's decided, this little alpine is getting a new Rotary heart!

Here is the preliminary plan...

I do a lot of technical documentation for my job so I will be doing my best to document the existing process and what I learn along the way. I will be posting it all here so get the popcorn ready.

General build concept
-Custom engine and trans mounts
-Mazda RX-8 Engine (13B-MSP)
-Keep the interior mostly stock
-Uprated springs and new shocks for better handling
-Anti rollbars for added handling
-Rear disk brake kit from Dan R
-Ford 8" rear end

 

[michael-king]

Hello All,

After a lot of conversations with the folks on here, so much googling and a nice chat with Dan R it's decided, this little alpine is getting a new v6 heart.

Here is the preliminary plan...

I'm do a lot of technical documentation for my job so I will be doing my best to document the existing process and what I learn along the way. I will be posting it all here so get the popcorn ready.

General build concept
-Dan R V6 Cologne engine swap kit
-Engine upgrades with hot cam and some other upgrades
-Id like about 150-175hp NA.
-Keep the interior mostly stock
-Uprated springs and new shocks for better handling
-Anti rollbars for added handling
-Rear disk brake kit from Dan R
-Holley Sniper EFI for reliabilty
-

Don't be to eager to install a rear sway bar....

Look into either bolt on traction master bars or a torque arm to deal with rear spring wind-up and resultant axle rotation.

What rear are you using? If keeping the Alpine one better install some harden woodruff keys.

Also take the diff out and replace all the diff bolts and instead of the crush washers lock tight the bolts in.

 

[sierra_alpine]

Love the advice thanks! I'll probably keep the stock rear end for now and upgrade later to something I can put a limited slip in. I want to make it a canyon Carver and occasional autocross events for fun

 

[Austin Healer]

I agree about a rear sway bar. Better off with radius arms (traction bars) and a panhard rod for axle location. The Alpine diff should be able to handle the HP you're after, but if you decide to go for the Ford 8", keep in mind, I have one that is all set up and ready to install! Posi really isn't something you need for a "canyon carver"... more something for bragging rights!

 

[sierra_alpine]

I agree about a rear sway bar. Better off with radius arms (traction bars) and a panhard rod for axle location. The Alpine diff should be able to handle the HP you're after, but if you decide to go for the Ford 8", keep in mind, I have one that is all set up and ready to install! Posi really isn't something you need for a "canyon carver"... more something for bragging rights!

Thanks Austin I'll keep that in mind.

I am on a parts hunt and will be pulling the really nice 1725 that was bored .60 over and built by Jim Jordan on our forum.

Any idea what I should ask for it? Not sure what a recently rebuilt motor goes for.

I'm currently looking for a t5 and 2.8 v6 as well if anyone has any leads. Nothing on FB marketplace in my area yet but I'll keep looking.

 

[Austin Healer]

no idea what the motor is worth, but I'm sure someone will chime in! The V6 Camaro and Firebird also used a T5, but they are designed for an electronic speedo so best to keep that in mind.

 

[Phyrman]

Where are you located? I am in need of an engine and I really don't want to rebuild one at this time...
I do talk with Jim every few months and it sucks that his house burnt down, but he is OK

Bruce

 

[sierra_alpine]

Where are you located? I am in need of an engine and I really don't want to rebuild one at this time...
I do talk with Jim every few months and it sucks that his house burnt down, but he is OK

Bruce

Hey Bruce,

I'm sure we can work something out, the engine has low low low miles since rebuild. I'd say less than 2500 miles on motor.

I'm up in placerville,ca. I make way way down to the bay area pretty often as well.

Luke

 

[Austin Healer]

Hello All,

After a lot of conversations with the folks on here, so much googling it's decided, this little alpine is getting a new Rotary heart!

Here is the preliminary plan...

I do a lot of technical documentation for my job so I will be doing my best to document the existing process and what I learn along the way. I will be posting it all here so get the popcorn ready.

General build concept
-Custom engine and trans mounts
-Mazda RX-8 Engine (13B-MSP)
-Keep the interior mostly stock
-Uprated springs and new shocks for better handling
-Anti rollbars for added handling
-Rear disk brake kit from Dan R
-Ford 8" rear end

I've been down that road! I fit a 13B and a 5 speed into a '56 Austin Healey 100 (series BN2) I can tell you that it went like stink, but... it was impossible to deal with the exhaust note. I installed a racing beat exhaust manifold flange and made a custom extractor. Connected that to a couple of pre-silencers and two additional mufflers after that. It sounded like an angry chain saw... There is even less room under an Alpine than there is under an Austin Healey....

The motor I used had been bridge ported, had a racing beat intake with a weber side draft carb, electronic ignition, oil cooler etc. It'd pop wheelies, I could drag the license plate on the ground... The car took fastest time of day in all classes at the '93 west coast meet in Oregon for the Healeys... (in the qtr. mile, with my wife driving.. she'd never driven the car prior). But the exhaust noise was an insurmountable issue... I converted the car back to OE 4cyl power and sold it to a guy in Klamath Falls....

You'd be better served going for a 2.8 Ford or just biting the bullet and making a clone with a 289/302.... I can tell you right now, you are not going to be happy with a rotary. The other option would be some other Japanese powerplant of a conventional nature....

I've owned stock Alpines, V6 Alpines and Tigers over the last 40 years. The V6 Alpine has as much (or more) power as a stock Tiger, weighs less, has better steering geometry and is quiet... the drivability of a V6 Alpine is, far and away, superior in every aspect to a stock Tiger... The only downside is that they don't have the value of a genuine Tiger.

 

[Phyrman]

Hey Bruce,

I'm sure we can work something out, the engine has low low low miles since rebuild. I'd say less than 2500 miles on motor.

I'm up in placerville,ca. I make way way down to the bay area pretty often as well.

Luke

Hi Luke,
I am down in Los Angeles
Lets talk

Bruce

 

[sierra_alpine]

I've been down that road! I fit a 13B and a 5 speed into a '56 Austin Healey 100 (series BN2) I can tell you that it went like stink, but... it was impossible to deal with the exhaust note. I installed a racing beat exhaust manifold flange and made a custom extractor. Connected that to a couple of pre-silencers and two additional mufflers after that. It sounded like an angry chain saw... There is even less room under an Alpine than there is under an Austin Healey....

The motor I used had been bridge ported, had a racing beat intake with a weber side draft carb, electronic ignition, oil cooler etc. It'd pop wheelies, I could drag the license plate on the ground... The car took fastest time of day in all classes at the '93 west coast meet in Oregon for the Healeys... (in the qtr. mile, with my wife driving.. she'd never driven the car prior). But the exhaust noise was an insurmountable issue... I converted the car back to OE 4cyl power and sold it to a guy in Klamath Falls....

You'd be better served going for a 2.8 Ford or just biting the bullet and making a clone with a 289/302.... I can tell you right now, you are not going to be happy with a rotary. The other option would be some other Japanese powerplant of a conventional nature....

I've owned stock Alpines, V6 Alpines and Tigers over the last 40 years. The V6 Alpine has as much (or more) power as a stock Tiger, weighs less, has better steering geometry and is quiet... the drivability of a V6 Alpine is, far and away, superior in every aspect to a stock Tiger... The only downside is that they don't have the value of a genuine Tiger.

I enjoy the sound of a rotary I'm looking forward to it. I've owned many modified rx7s and rx8s, also I'd take a very loud rotary over the v6. The v6 motor at this point is ancient, I started down that route and didn't not get excited at all for the swap. The amount of effort to get 250hp out of the 13b msp will be a tune, header and custom intake while to get those numbers out of the old v6 we're talking full rebuild and other $1000s in parts. Not worth it imo.

 

[sierra_alpine]

Hi Luke,
I am down in Los Angeles
Lets talk

Bruce

That's not too far I am actually planning on going to San Diego to visit my brother soon so we can work out some cheaper than shipping agreement. Pm me.

 

[Phyrman]

That's not too far I am actually planning on going to San Diego to visit my brother soon so we can work out some cheaper than shipping agreement. Pm me.

Done

 

[Austin Healer]

I enjoy the sound of a rotary I'm looking forward to it. I've owned many modified rx7s and rx8s, also I'd take a very loud rotary over the v6. The v6 motor at this point is ancient, I started down that route and didn't not get excited at all for the swap. The amount of effort to get 250hp out of the 13b msp will be a tune, header and custom intake while to get those numbers out of the old v6 we're talking full rebuild and other $1000s in parts. Not worth it imo.

As long as you can stand the noise!!! Anything over 50 miles took all my enthusiasm away! I agree, they are cheap to tune and parts are cheap. I made the adapter to fit in the Healey at home in an hour. No cutting and it bolted right onto the OE Healey engine mounts. I was in my 30's when I built the car and I couldn't stand the noise then . I had a pal with a 13B Mazda pickup that inspired the build. In my 60's now, and I know I could never put up with it now! I wish you luck with your endeavor!

On my Tiger I have flow masters as a primary muffler and couldn't stand that... I installed a free flowing resonators under the trunk floors on both sides and it's much better now. I'm not 16 anymore!

I agree that the 2.8 Ford is old tech.... But so is the 351 Cleveland in '70 Mach 1's and I still regret selling mine. (Or the 302 in my Mk2 Tiger) I'm a luddite and collect old radios from the '20's... I love basking in the glow of warm vacuum tubes! Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.

 

[65beam]

There was a light blue rotary powered Alpine at the SUNI event at Big Sky. It was a nice set up and I seem to remember that the owner was a pilot and was from southern California. Don't know if it's still around. Anybody remember it? I have photos of it in one of my albums. Tiger Tom Erhart built the RotoRooter probably in the late 70's. It was a Mazda rotary powered fastback GT. I drove it one time and it was fast.

 

[sierra_alpine]

As long as you can stand the noise!!! Anything over 50 miles took all my enthusiasm away! I agree, they are cheap to tune and parts are cheap. I made the adapter to fit in the Healey at home in an hour. No cutting and it bolted right onto the OE Healey engine mounts. I was in my 30's when I built the car and I couldn't stand the noise then . I had a pal with a 13B Mazda pickup that inspired the build. In my 60's now, and I know I could never put up with it now! I wish you luck with your endeavor!

On my Tiger I have flow masters as a primary muffler and couldn't stand that... I installed a free flowing resonators under the trunk floors on both sides and it's much better now. I'm not 16 anymore!

I agree that the 2.8 Ford is old tech.... But so is the 351 Cleveland in '70 Mach 1's and I still regret selling mine. (Or the 302 in my Mk2 Tiger) I'm a luddite and collect old radios from the '20's... I love basking in the glow of warm vacuum tubes! Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.

I totally understand, I think 🤔 I just want to make something extremely unique and I love rotaries so it feels special to me. I'll be using the stock FI to keep it reliable and not have to rejet all the time since I sit at 3k elevation but go to Tahoe often and to the bay area often as well so the carbs would be all kinds of out of wack if I ditched the FI.

 

[sierra_alpine]

There was a light blue rotary powered Alpine at the SUNI event at Big Sky. It was a nice set up and I seem to remember that the owner was a pilot and was from southern California. Don't know if it's still around. Anybody remember it? I have photos of it in one of my albums. Tiger Tom Erhart built the RotoRooter probably in the late 70's. It was a Mazda rotary powered fastback GT. I drove it one time and it was fast.

Oh man that would be cool if there were pictures 😉. I'm not too worried on it all fitting the Rx8 motor with all the assessors is still smaller that the v6 long block. And the 6 speed trans is almost identical to the Miata trans that people use when swapping over a Miata drivetrain.

 

[theo_s]

There was a light blue rotary powered Alpine at the SUNI event at Big Sky. It was a nice set up and I seem to remember that the owner was a pilot and was from southern California. Don't know if it's still around. Anybody remember it? I have photos of it in one of my albums. Tiger Tom Erhart built the RotoRooter probably in the late 70's. It was a Mazda rotary powered fastback GT. I drove it one time and it was fast.

Could have been Rob Guerra. I think he and Tom Hall built a rotary Alpine way back when. The main thing with the sound management on rotaries is to use the right muffler(s). Anything that is not made of stainless steel will last about five minutes.

 

[sierra_alpine]

Could have been Rob Guerra. I think he and Tom Hall built a rotary Alpine way back when. The main thing with the sound management on rotaries is to use the right muffler(s). Anything that is not made of stainless steel will last about five minutes.

Don't I know it haha 😂...learned the hard way buying a cheap eBay exhaust in highschool with my first rx7 little 12a motor. So much heat just destroyed the exhaust. Ended up buying the racingbeat catback and all was good.

 

[65beam]

Oh man that would be cool if there were pictures 😉. I'm not too worried on it all fitting the Rx8 motor with all the assessors is still smaller that the v6 long block. And the 6 speed trans is almost identical to the Miata trans that people use when swapping over a Miata drivetrain.

I'll try to remember to pull out the photo albums. I'm sure I have photos. I have 40 + years of photos taken at shows and my 40 years of TE /AE Uniteds and all of the SUNI events. I remember following an RX 7 down the back straight at Mid Ohio and being too closes and saw flames shoot at me.