Looking into a V6 engine swap. Is there anyone still making kits?

[sierra_alpine]

Hello fellow Sunbeam owners!

I have a 65 Sunbeam Alpine that runs has a very nice 1725 motor in it but I have grown tired of the plucky little 4 cylinder. My next door neighbor growing up had a tiger and I would like to emulate that in my own Alpine with a sbf v8 and a t5 trans for highway cruising.

I am looking for a well documented conversion but seems like all those folks that have build v8 alpines didn't take extensive notes or blog their progress.

This will be my first hot rod build so having extensive advice and instructions would be welcomed.

As it stands I was in the progress of pulling the trans and installing a replacement I bought on the forum right before the pandemic hit. I then got distracted by going back to school and becoming a dad 😁.

 

[michael-king]

Have you had a good look at the difference in sheet metal of a Tiger and alpine? You will be doing some surgery to the floors, firewall and trans tunnel... Not to mention many other "adjustments" then there is the steering and suspension...

There is a donor Tiger for sale currently for under 4 K that would provide most parts...and could potentially be saved as a tiger if you were prepared to sacrifice your round corner Siv...

 

[sierra_alpine]

Have you had a good look at the difference in sheet metal of a Tiger and alpine? You will be doing some surgery to the floors, firewall and trans tunnel... Not to mention many other "adjustments" then there is the steering and suspension...

There is a donor Tiger for sale currently for under 4 K that would provide most parts...and could potentially be saved as a tiger if you were prepared to sacrifice your round corner Siv...

Hi Michael

Thanks for the input, I'm trying to see if this is when feasible. I've got a project budget of around 15k, if that's not doable then maybe I put the new trans back in and sell it and find something else.

 

[Austin Healer]

There are tons of differences, not that you couldn't cobble together something on the cheap. Not trying to be disrespectful at all, but the end result will be a lot of time and effort making something that will never offer a return on investment.

In addition to the mods previously mentioned, there are frame mods to the front (to clear the exhaust manifolds) and the rear of the car (bump stops and panhard rod), as well as to the cruciform for exhaust clearance. As for donor cars, or using yours as a donor.... There were many design changes in how the bodies were made across the series 4 and series 5 cars. Not all cars of a certain series can be donors to repair another.

A much easier conversion would be going the 2.8 litre Capri V6. These can be made to put out more power than a stock 260 V8 and allow the retention of the Alpine steering geometry which is much superior to the Tiger. (no reverse Ackermann issues) The V6 conversion requires no changes to the engine bay, and only small ones to the trans tunnel depending on which gearbox is chosen. The original Alpine rear axle can be retained, or you could opt for the Ford 8" unit.

I've built these in the past...

 

[sierra_alpine]

Those are all great points.

My main thing here is reliability, the car has spent more time in the garage than anything else. Local so called British specialized mechanics got it running but only barely and then I was out thousands.

So that begs the question.

Is the v6 conversion worth it? What's the cost? Is there step by step documentation?

Or should I keep the engine I have and do something like a 5 speed swap and use a holly sniper efi rather than the Webber I have to make it more reliable?

All the help is appreciated 🙏👍

Oh also anyone local to my area that may have a v6 swapped alpine? I'd love to come check your build out.

I live in placerville ca so I'd drive a couple hours to come check yours and maybe go for a ride and pick your brain for build thoughts.

Thanks
Luke Lubetkin

 

[Austin Healer]

The Webber DGV is a horrible carb in my humble (or not!) opinion. The Stromberg side draft carbs are generally pretty reliable if rebuilt properly and then left alone. Over 90% of tuning issues are in the distributor which can be addressed with electronic ignition. The series 4 Alpine used a gearbox with no syncro on 1st and a lot of American drivers just cannot get their head around having to completely stop before engaging 1st. A simple solution is the later series 5 Alpine g'box which is fully synchronized ( I have a spare!) Another charming aspect of a lot of British cars is the carbon ring throwout bearing... When at a stop your foot needs to be OFF the clutch pedal. These can wear out in as little as a couple thousand miles or last well over 100K miles with proper use.

The V6 kit was called a "Jose" Alpine V6 kit and was made in Washington state. They have been unavailable for many years but are very simple to fabricate. It used a mid 80's Ford 5 speed (T5 Mustang based). There were a couple of 90 degree brackets on the front of the motor with corresponding round threaded bungs welded to the front suspension crossmember with a simple rubber disc sandwiched between them. The engine could be either a 2.6 or 2.8 Ford, but the 2.6 has severely restricted exhaust ports and is unsuitable for being tuned. The 3.0 has a deck height which makes it unsuitable as well (too tall). You do not want the 2.9 truck engine as it's configuration makes it unsuitable. The original Alpine mounts were removed from the suspension crossmember (cut off). A simple box steel crossmember was fabricated to carry the 5 speed and it bolts to the standard Alpine crossmember mounts. The kit could either use the original rear axle, or a narrowed Ford 8" unit from a Capri or Pinto. It would need to be narrowed (47.5") and have the mounting pads and shock mounts transferred from the Alpine unit. These Ford axles can easily take 300HP. With a 5 speed the ideal axle ratio would be 3.5:1. Fords axles have the same wheel bolt pattern as the Alpine, just with 1/2-20tpi studs instead of 7/16-20 TPI studs. A neat thing about the Ford axle is the ease of changing gear ratios compared to the Alpine unit. I have a Ford axle already set up for this conversion with 2 choices of gear ratios and the gearset centered to avoid fouling the propshaft tunnel. Lokar makes a kit to combine the cable e-brake system of the Ford axle compatible with the Alpine handbrake. The axle I have is set up with one.

Sunbeam Specialties sells the exhaust frame pass throughs (for Tigers), so fabricating the exhaust is straightforward.

There was minor fabrication required to clear the gearbox and that was all. the existing factory clutch master was compatible with a hydraulic throw out bearing and a driveshaft would need to be fabricated for the Ford g'box and then total length taken into consideration. The kit did include headers, but there is no reason that the cast units could not have been used.

Occasionally someone sells a converted Alpine and even the kits come on to the market from time to time, but as I said, they are very simple to fabricate. I converted a series 5 in the early 90's in a little more than a week.

a lot of useful info at sunbeamupgrades.com/the-v6-conversion

 

[sierra_alpine]

The Webber DGV is a horrible carb in my humble (or not!) opinion. The Stromberg side draft carbs are generally pretty reliable if rebuilt properly and then left alone. Over 90% of tuning issues are in the distributor which can be addressed with electronic ignition. The series 4 Alpine used a gearbox with no syncro on 1st and a lot of American drivers just cannot get their head around having to completely stop before engaging 1st. A simple solution is the later series 5 Alpine g'box which is fully synchronized ( I have a spare!) Another charming aspect of a lot of British cars is the carbon ring throwout bearing... When at a stop your foot needs to be OFF the clutch pedal. These can wear out in as little as a couple thousand miles or last well over 100K miles with proper use.

The V6 kit was called a "Jose" Alpine V6 kit and was made in Washington state. They have been unavailable for many years but are very simple to fabricate. It used a mid 80's Ford 5 speed (T5 Mustang based). There were a couple of 90 degree brackets on the front of the motor with corresponding round threaded bungs welded to the front suspension crossmember with a simple rubber disc sandwiched between them. The engine could be either a 2.6 or 2.8 Ford, but the 2.6 has severely restricted exhaust ports and is unsuitable for being tuned. The 3.0 has a deck height which makes it unsuitable as well (too tall). You do not want the 2.9 truck engine as it's configuration makes it unsuitable. The original Alpine mounts were removed from the suspension crossmember (cut off). A simple box steel crossmember was fabricated to carry the 5 speed and it bolts to the standard Alpine crossmember mounts. The kit could either use the original rear axle, or a narrowed Ford 8" unit from a Capri or Pinto. It would need to be narrowed (47.5") and have the mounting pads and shock mounts transferred from the Alpine unit. These Ford axles can easily take 300HP. With a 5 speed the ideal axle ratio would be 3.5:1. Fords axles have the same wheel bolt pattern as the Alpine, just with 1/2-20tpi studs instead of 7/16-20 TPI studs. A neat thing about the Ford axle is the ease of changing gear ratios compared to the Alpine unit. I have a Ford axle already set up for this conversion with 2 choices of gear ratios and the gearset centered to avoid fouling the propshaft tunnel. Lokar makes a kit to combine the cable e-brake system of the Ford axle compatible with the Alpine handbrake. The axle I have is set up with one.

Sunbeam Specialties sells the exhaust frame pass throughs (for Tigers), so fabricating the exhaust is straightforward.

There was minor fabrication required to clear the gearbox and that was all. the existing factory clutch master was compatible with a hydraulic throw out bearing and a driveshaft would need to be fabricated for the Ford g'box and then total length taken into consideration. The kit did include headers, but there is no reason that the cast units could not have been used.

Occasionally someone sells a converted Alpine and even the kits come on to the market from time to time, but as I said, they are very simple to fabricate. I converted a series 5 in the early 90's in a little more than a week.

a lot of useful info at sunbeamupgrades.com/the-v6-conversion

Wow that info is so so helpful Ill check out that site now.

Thank you 🙏😊

 

[Austin Healer]

Wow that info is so so helpful Ill check out that site now.

Thank you 🙏😊

you are very welcome!

 

[woody6]

You might also reach out to Dan Richardson in the Alpine clubs. I think he makes many V6 conversion parts, and I got the chance to see his V6 Alpine at SUNI in 2021. The way the V6 fits in the engine bay will make a Tiger owner envious (at least for access to the engine bits).

https://www.sunbeamclub.com/member/TigerDan.98048/

 

[Austin Healer]

absolutely! the V6 is much more accessible for service!

 

[HolyCat]

It looks like there is plenty of room for that A/C compressor, too!

 

[michael-king]

Dan Richardson sells v6 kits .. they are improved over the original Jose kits and the header design was upgraded ...he also sells rear disc brake kits and other good stuff
dan can be found on the SAOCA Forum and also via his website: http://danr.mhartman.net/


Regarding the DVG vs Stromberg's... another issue which makes people switch is that the linkages are often old and no longer in spec. It makes them harder to adjust and less responsive and easier to go out of Ballance ... Thats why people claim huge improvement when they fit a new dvg kit ... Well of course... You replaced worm out parts with new ones....

 

[sierra_alpine]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I talked to Dan today so I have some marching orders. Going to start searching for a 2.8 v6 and the t5 trans