tigresunbeam
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MKII keys , anyone as picture of keys specific to the late one , and where both keys put under the JAL number
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With the keys under the JAL tag, I can’t help thinking the screws would have to be longer. I’ve had mine off and they’re pretty tiny. So I guess in addition to fastening the keys under the tag, they would have had to of installed longer screws? What kind of instructions would have come from the assembly line that this car needed an extra key under the JAL tag and not for others, would it be standard practice that all cars were fitted this way?
Austin Healer
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Kind of funny... I have seen this quite a lot on Big Healeys... But I SERIOUSLY doubt this was done by Rootes OR BMC.... The picture supplied shows a FS style key, NOT an RM or RL key... I suspect that this was done by either an importer or dealer. Healeys also have two keys issued after 1964. One key for the ignition and doors, the other for the boot and glovebox... Just like an Alpine or Tiger. Just like the Alpine and Tiger, these were recorded on the build records. The Healey (and other BMC products) used FS keys for both the ignition and glove box, but the glove box key was differently shaped. .On early Big Healeys all of the locks were the same. The Alpine and Tiger used DIFFERENT keys for the ign/doors and the boot/cubby box. The ignition keys were RL (alpine) and RM (tiger) and the boot and cubby were FS type... I don't know if anyone but me realizes this (I suspect they do)... RM and RL keys will fit the same locks.... and FS keys will as well...
But I would think that if an importer was putting a spare under one screw of the SAL/JAL tag they'd at least put the correct L&F (or ROOTES for Alpine) ignition key under the screw instead of the trunk lock/cubby box key. Every Big Healey/BMC product that I have seen with a key (usually under one screw of the chassis plate) is the ignition key. BMC attached their chassis plates with truss head #4 phillips screws, instead of rivets, like Rootes. Something that I have gone over and over again with vehicle inspectors in Washington state... thankfully, Washington no longer requires state patrol verification of vin tags on out of state title transfers!
tigresunbeam
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See attached Key from a completely original unrestored car !!! " You even can see tje imprint in the paint !!!!!
Austin Healer
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which key is it??? ign/door or cubby/boot. The Union keys (made by Wilmot Breeden) were FS type... The Rootes or L&F marked keys were differently shaped... Of course, the RM,RL and FS keys will ALL fit the same lock... Tigers had L&F keys. L&F on one side and Rootes on the other.. (tho, I have seen L&F keys w/o Rootes on the obverse. Alpines were RL coded and have Rootes on one side and a Pentastar on the obverse... This is a set for the Mk1 currently in for resto, My Mk2 Keys are identical in all but code.
Austin Healer
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I do have original keys for my MK2 (#436) there were no keys under either JAL tag screw. paint pictured is original... of course, this picture is before the currently ongoing restoration! This was an Ontario delivered Mk2.
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There may have been different ways of doing things for Rootes cars versus other marques and also cars shipped to other countries including Canada. If you want to talk with someone that has spent a lot of time concerning Rootes keys and has a knowledge of keys used, I would suggest you contact David Hall in Charlotte, N.C. He's an owner of Tigers and Harringtons. I've seen more than one "time capsule" Rootes car with a key secured under the body tag. The change probably happened after Alpine production moved to Ryton and the body tag style changed to the late SAL / JAL tag style. The early Alpines built at Armstrong Siddley used an oval body tag secured to the bulkhead by rivets. The TE/AE site does show the guide line photos for concourse judging of both Alpines and Tigers. These guidelines were put together as a joint venture of several clubs. Those folks with questions can scroll thru the photos and learn a lot.
In researching the various keys used on Alpines and Tigers, I found there were as many exceptions as consistencies. It seems that each car got one key for the ignition and doors, and another for the trunk and cubby. Most Alpines used RM or RL, but this was difficult to document. Early cars may have used FP or SR, and ST was mixed in. My 1962 HLM has RM. There was consistent use of the FS key and lock for trunk/cubby. The letters delineated the type of lock the key would fit in, mainly by the fluting size and spacing (the longitudinal groove). Sean is right that RM and RL are essentially the same and interchange. There is a slight difference in the shape of the head. The ST keys and locks were mirror images of RM/RL, in that the fluting was on the opposite side, and therefore ST and RM/RL will not interchange.
The FS keys had fluting on both sides, but RM/RL/ST only had it on one side. Therefore they will not fit in an FS lock, but FS keys will fit the RM/RL/ST locks. I've wondered if it would be possible to get a single FS key set up to work all 5 locks on the cars.
Tigers mainly used RM keys, with none using RL. There were 811 ST keys/locks in Tigers, mainly in later Mk1A cars. Mkll are almost all RM, with only 3 ST. The Jensen ledgers are really helpful here, but of course there is no equivalent ledger for Alpines. All the Tigers used the FS "Union" key for trunk/cubby.
The RM/RL keys usually had Rootes on one side with the letters/numbers, and L&F and an arc of Made in England on the obverse. ST keys had Strebor instead of L&F, and the ST... under Strebor. Later keys had the Chrysler pentastar. Replacement keys were either blank or had WBH on them. David
The FS keys had fluting on both sides, but RM/RL/ST only had it on one side. Therefore they will not fit in an FS lock, but FS keys will fit the RM/RL/ST locks. I've wondered if it would be possible to get a single FS key set up to work all 5 locks on the cars.
Tigers mainly used RM keys, with none using RL. There were 811 ST keys/locks in Tigers, mainly in later Mk1A cars. Mkll are almost all RM, with only 3 ST. The Jensen ledgers are really helpful here, but of course there is no equivalent ledger for Alpines. All the Tigers used the FS "Union" key for trunk/cubby.
The RM/RL keys usually had Rootes on one side with the letters/numbers, and L&F and an arc of Made in England on the obverse. ST keys had Strebor instead of L&F, and the ST... under Strebor. Later keys had the Chrysler pentastar. Replacement keys were either blank or had WBH on them. David
Austin Healer
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Wilmot Breeden is the parent company (WBH) for Union and made most of the door handles, bumpers and chrome parts for all of the British car manufactures... KInd of like GKN and Rubery Owen making all the fasteners and a bunch of other parts. Pressed steel also made Sprite/Midget shells and MGB shells, among others... and Jensen built the bodies for Big Healeys from 1953-1967, Volvo P1800's, and Tigers... along with their own cars like the Interceptors, and Jensen Healey...
It's a country with the landmass of Oregon... you're never more than 100 miles from the sea... It would be impossible for individual companies to manufacture parts in house... Even Aston Martin used parts from Porsche, Volkswagen, Volvo 122's, and MGTD's in the DB5! (along with parts from a lot of other manufacturers)
It's a country with the landmass of Oregon... you're never more than 100 miles from the sea... It would be impossible for individual companies to manufacture parts in house... Even Aston Martin used parts from Porsche, Volkswagen, Volvo 122's, and MGTD's in the DB5! (along with parts from a lot of other manufacturers)
Wilmot Breeden was a fascinating company, selling many of the trim pieces and locking mechanisms for our cars. Sometimes they did the castings themselves, and other times bought castings from others, and plated them themselves. Rootes of course would shop for the best deal, but the option of "one stop shopping" helped Wilmot Breeden sell a great deal of goods. The FS "Union" keys were actually made by Josiah Parks and Sons, who put the Wilmot Breeden name on them. After Wilmot Breeden was essentially out of business, Peter Weston bought up some parts of teh business, including the right to make replacement keys. The WBH stands for Weston Body Hardware. These keys are well made, but have a smoother, more shiny appearance. Other replacement keys are made by ILCO, Taylor, or Romac. David
Thought this might be of interest. In the late 70s I tried to order key blanks from Chrysler (I was buying and selling Sunbeam parts) I gave them a list of the various keys and here is what I received.
Ignition/door key 9228117 which superseded 5220397 and trunk key 9228116 which superseded 5200535. Got two different styles/markings of the 9228117 key.
David Franchi
Ignition/door key 9228117 which superseded 5220397 and trunk key 9228116 which superseded 5200535. Got two different styles/markings of the 9228117 key.
David Franchi
Going back to discussion about spare keys located under the JAL.
If familiar with the photograph of the Jensen assembly line taken by the Brit - Bob May in 1966, then here is a close-up edit of it.
It shows the spare keys fitted beneath the JAL of MK1A - B382002110 LRX.
Strong evidence that spare keys were so located at least come the MKIA.
If familiar with the photograph of the Jensen assembly line taken by the Brit - Bob May in 1966, then here is a close-up edit of it.
It shows the spare keys fitted beneath the JAL of MK1A - B382002110 LRX.
Strong evidence that spare keys were so located at least come the MKIA.