some notes on fasteners

[Austin Healer]

Some time ago I submitted the way to decrypt the fastener parts numbers found in the Alpine and Tiger parts books. Some additional notes for the more anal among you that want to use correct fasteners.

Rubery Owen was the manufacturer for all of the fasteners found on Alpines, Tigers and the great majority of all English cars.

Screws were either zinc plated or chrome plated. Chrome screws could either be steel or brass, it depends on the use and strength required. Bolts and set screws could have been unplated (plain), zinc, or phosphated. There are rare occurrences of chrome plated bolts. Stainless fasteners were never used on these cars and in the case of suspension parts, are completely unsafe, and should NEVER be used.

Washers were "Imperial" sized. They have a much smaller outside diameter that a normal SAE washer. Helpfully, metric washers have the same outside diameter as an Imperial washer.

Screws on MK1 cars were either slotted or Phillips. Sometime in the middle of Series 5 Alpine and Mk1A Tiger, Phillips was replaced by Pozi-driv screws. These can be distinguished by marks in the screw head at 45 degrees to what looks like a Phillips slots. Pozi-drive screws can be removed by a Phillips screwdriver, but cannot be really tightened w/o using the correct pozi screwdriver.

Head markings on English bolts have a depressed center and script around the perimeter. The vast majority of the fasteners on Alpines and Tigers are marked "AUTO" and have a suffix letter of "S" or "R". Not all of the bolt heads are so marked. 10-32 threaded hex headed set screws are usually unmarked. I have found scattered 1/4-28 bolts that are marked "SPARTS" or "WILEY" and some marked only with an "S" or an "R". A good rule of thumb is to document what you finds an put it back where you found it.

Generally fasteners that were painted over, were bright zinc plated. Parts that were left unpainted were phosphated (black oxide). I have a company I use in Spokane that can clean a zinc plate fasteners, hose clamps etc... they can also phosphate parts for me. the cost is quite reasonable Usually about $50 for a 5 gallon bucket and I don't have to clean the parts first.

Lockwashers... The vast majority of lockwashers used on Alpines and Tigers are internal tooth type. exceptions are on flat head or oval head screws where the lockwashers are beveled external tooth. there are outliers that are standard cut type lockwashers, but there aren't a lot of them on the cars

 

[65beam]

Some time ago I submitted the way to decrypt the fastener parts numbers found in the Alpine and Tiger parts books. Some additional notes for the more anal among you that want to use correct fasteners.

Rubery Owen was the manufacturer for all of the fasteners found on Alpines, Tigers and the great majority of all English cars.

Screws were either zinc plated or chrome plated. Chrome screws could either be steel or brass, it depends on the use and strength required. Bolts and set screws could have been unplated (plain), zinc, or phosphated. There are rare occurrences of chrome plated bolts. Stainless fasteners were never used on these cars and in the case of suspension parts, are completely unsafe, and should NEVER be used.

Washers were "Imperial" sized. They have a much smaller outside diameter that a normal SAE washer. Helpfully, metric washers have the same outside diameter as an Imperial washer.

Screws on MK1 cars were either slotted or Phillips. Sometime in the middle of Series 5 Alpine and Mk1A Tiger, Phillips was replaced by Pozi-driv screws. These can be distinguished by marks in the screw head at 45 degrees to what looks like a Phillips slots. Pozi-drive screws can be removed by a Phillips screwdriver, but cannot be really tightened w/o using the correct pozi screwdriver.

Head markings on English bolts have a depressed center and script around the perimeter. The vast majority of the fasteners on Alpines and Tigers are marked "AUTO" and have a suffix letter of "S" or "R". Not all of the bolt heads are so marked. 10-32 threaded hex headed set screws are usually unmarked. I have found scattered 1/4-28 bolts that are marked "SPARTS" or "WILEY" and some marked only with an "S" or an "R". A good rule of thumb is to document what you finds an put it back where you found it.

Generally fasteners that were painted over, were bright zinc plated. Parts that were left unpainted were phosphated (black oxide). I have a company I use in Spokane that can clean a zinc plate fasteners, hose clamps etc... they can also phosphate parts for me. the cost is quite reasonable Usually about $50 for a 5 gallon bucket and I don't have to clean the parts first.

Lockwashers... The vast majority of lockwashers used on Alpines and Tigers are internal tooth type. exceptions are on flat head or oval head screws where the lockwashers are beveled external tooth. there are outliers that are standard cut type lockwashers, but there aren't a lot of them on the cars

Most if not all of this info is listed in the original parts manuals.

 

[Austin Healer]

Most if not all of this info is listed in the original parts manuals.

There is no information on head markings for the bolts in any of the parts manuals

 

[65beam]

I haven't seen a judge check to see if the screws are posi drive or phillips.

 

[pfreen]

If you want to make your car original, it has pozi-drive screws. The same can be said of the distributor for instance. You can buy a better, more accurate ignition system than an original distributor for less money.
However, it is not original.
It all depends on what you want.

 

[Austin Healer]

I haven't seen a judge check to see if the screws are posi drive or phillips.

It's all in what you want. In Austin Healey concours you lose 1/2 point for every incorrect visible fastener... Whether its a washer, bolt, lock washer or screw. That can add up pretty quickly. I've seen cars lose a full placement in judging just because the fasteners are wrong.

 

[65beam]

It's all in what you want. In Austin Healey concours you lose 1/2 point for every incorrect visible fastener... Whether its a washer, bolt, lock washer or screw. That can add up pretty quickly. I've seen cars lose a full placement in judging just because the fasteners are wrong.

Check out the guide lines for judging Sunbeams that are shown on the TE/AE site. These were put together by several of the clubs. The Tiger guide shows only one reference to fasteners and that has to do with original bolts. There is no reference to fasteners on Alpines. There is a possibility of a maximum of 200 points for both Tigers and Alpines. I decided not to judge cars this year so I could spend more time talking cars with folks. The last time I judged was at SUNI two years ago. I seem to remember that at the United two weeks ago the first place stock Tiger finished with 196 points. My wife's Alpine finished first in stock Alpine with 190 points. It lost points due to the Weber conversion, radial tires, trunk lights from where we used to travel in it and a 29 year old paint job with a few road chips and a 29 year old interior by Martha. How many Tigers have you restored?

 

[Austin Healer]

I've seen it. The Concours guidelines for the Big Healey is well over 600 pages. We started on the guide in 1989. I have participated in helping with the guide and edits and additions since then and have been selected to judge/inspect cars many times. Cars are judged on a 1000 point scale. 950-1000 is gold, silver is 900-950 and bronze 850-900. Competition is only against the guidelines, overall scores are not released to discourage competition between cars (or owners). Entrants are told of their concours placement/level and awarded a certificate listing the level and the judges who inspected the car. Judging is supposed to not last longer than 1 hour, but sometimes does exceed that.

I've been restoring British cars since the early 80's. It is my only job. Started restoring Tigers in '93. Mostly Big Healeys prior with a few Jaguars (XK150's and E-types), TR's, MG's and an Aston Martin DB5. Now restoring my 2nd Aston Martin DB5. Probably a dozen, or more, Tigers sprinkled in over the years along with a '53 Sunbeam Talbot 90 Mk2 DHC.

 

[IvaTiger]

It's all in what you want. In Austin Healey concours you lose 1/2 point for every incorrect visible fastener... Whether its a washer, bolt, lock washer or screw. That can add up pretty quickly. I've seen cars lose a full placement in judging just because the fasteners are wrong.

Curious to know how many points would you loose if the wrong screw and lock washer is used , would that be 1 point and only 1/2 point if just the washer is wrong. And if you were totally missing the fastener I guess that would be no loss of points because it is not visible? I will never put my car up for judges to evaluate what is right or wrong it would sour my thoughts

 

[Austin Healer]

Curious to know how many points would you loose if the wrong screw and lock washer is used , would that be 1 point and only 1/2 point if just the washer is wrong. And if you were totally missing the fastener I guess that would be no loss of points because it is not visible? I will never put my car up for judges to evaluate what is right or wrong it would sour my thoughts

in the Healey world you'd lose a full point. .5 for the screw and .5 for the washer. missing fasteners get the same deduction as incorrect ones. You can also lose points for condition.... if the fastener is corroded, even if it is the correct spec, you can lose .5 points... it can be a tough crowd! I have to agree that entering a car for concours can be a soul destroying experience. My first Healey (purchased in 1981) was a 1961 2 seat, triple carb Mk2. One of 214 made with a side shift gearbox. It was the ONLY example exported to Gibraltar. I spent years bringing it up to concours and as someone in my mid 20's I was decidedly at a political disadvantage to the perceived powers that be. I managed to get a silver award, but a lot of the deductions were suspect. This was in 1987, 2 years before concours was completely changed in Healey world. Still, I was completely disillusioned and sold the car in 1993... in retaliation I built a '56 Healey 100 powered by a rotary Mazda engine (13B) with 5 speed. The car would rev to 11K rpm and lift the front wheels off the ground! I sold that car in 1995 and got my first Tiger shortly after.

I bought another 2 seat tricarb Healey in 1989... This a later car with a centershift gearbox. Only 141 of those made... still have it! Needless to say, It didn't look like this when I bought it!

 

[IvaTiger]

in the Healey world you'd lose a full point. .5 for the screw and .5 for the washer. missing fasteners get the same deduction as incorrect ones. You can also lose points for condition.... if the fastener is corroded, even if it is the correct spec, you can lose .5 points... it can be a tough crowd! I have to agree that entering a car for concours can be a soul destroying experience. My first Healey (purchased in 1981) was a 1961 2 seat, triple carb Mk2. One of 214 made with a side shift gearbox. It was the ONLY example exported to Gibraltar. I spent years bringing it up to concours and as someone in my mid 20's I was decidedly at a political disadvantage to the perceived powers that be. I managed to get a silver award, but a lot of the deductions were suspect. This was in 1987, 2 years before concours was completely changed in Healey world. Still, I was completely disillusioned and sold the car in 1993... in retaliation I built a '56 Healey 100 powered by a rotary Mazda engine (13B) with 5 speed. The car would rev to 11K rpm and lift the front wheels off the ground! I sold that car in 1995 and got my first Tiger shortly after.

I bought another 2 seat tricarb Healey in 1989... This a later car with a centershift gearbox. Only 141 of those made... still have it! Needless to say, It didn't look like this when I bought it!



View attachment 18403

Sweet car One question my Tiger was built Dec 1964 and has 4 pozidrive screws holding in the dash , any points deducted for not having a smaller screw to the right of the cubby box

 

[65beam]

Sweet car One question my Tiger was built Dec 1964 and has 4 pozidrive screws holding in the dash , any points deducted for not having a smaller screw to the right of the cubby box

If it was a vinyl covered dash it would have the black bakelite surround so there would not be a screw because the surround has pins to hold it in place. That's the reason for the extra screw on a wood dash. No surround. And the whole in the body is smaller.

 

[Austin Healer]

Sweet car One question my Tiger was built Dec 1964 and has 4 pozidrive screws holding in the dash , any points deducted for not having a smaller screw to the right of the cubby box

I can't say regarding the fasteners on a Tiger as I don't have any direct experience with Tiger concours... It would be a deduction in the Healey scheme of things. However... the dash screws (oval head Phillips in black phosphate) would normally be Phillips and NOT Pozi-drive on a Mk1 Tiger. Three of the screws are 1/4" sheet metal thread (or spire thread) and the 4th would be a #12. Sometime in late '65 the Phillips screws were changed to Pozi-driv. The transition to Pozi-driv screws changed at about the same time for Big Healey production.

I have examples of both Phillips and Pozi dash screws. I have a Mk1 Tiger in the shop now (below B9471000) and it has Phillips screws. The Mk1a prototype I restored (B9479975PPLRXFE) had Pozidrive screws. Currently suppliers in the UK stock dash screws in Pozi-driv only, but their stock is wrong in that all 4 screws are 1/4" diameter... I'd love to have one of the smaller pozi screws for the RH corner of the dash for my Mk2!!

The caveat I always quote is... if you can document that your car was built a certain way, document it and rebuild it the same way. I never throw anything away. You often find that replacements are impossible to source. I save parts like fasteners and clips and hose clamps and have them replated/restored so I can have a more authentic restoration.

 

[65beam]

I've seen it. The Concours guidelines for the Big Healey is well over 600 pages. We started on the guide in 1989. I have participated in helping with the guide and edits and additions since then and have been selected to judge/inspect cars many times. Cars are judged on a 1000 point scale. 950-1000 is gold, silver is 900-950 and bronze 850-900. Competition is only against the guidelines, overall scores are not released to discourage competition between cars (or owners). Entrants are told of their concours placement/level and awarded a certificate listing the level and the judges who inspected the car. Judging is supposed to not last longer than 1 hour, but sometimes does exceed that.

I've been restoring British cars since the early 80's. It is my only job. Started restoring Tigers in '93. Mostly Big Healeys prior with a few Jaguars (XK150's and E-types), TR's, MG's and an Aston Martin DB5. Now restoring my 2nd Aston Martin DB5. Probably a dozen, or more, Tigers sprinkled in over the years along with a '53 Sunbeam Talbot 90 Mk2 DHC.

Not to argue your point but these are Sunbeams. We pick up the judging sheets for our cars at the east coast Uniteds just as we do at the SUNI events. We know what the judges saw and what points were deducted as well as our total scores. It sounds like the Healey owners go into this as a competition just like playing a sport but not showing anyone what the score was but only being told who won the game. It almost sounds like the organizers and some owners don't respect other owners enough to talk about what they may see different on Joe or Charlie's car. That prevents the owner knowing what to change to improve their car. That's being selfish. I remember a well known west coaster telling us that TE/AE folks show up for the family reunion and many conversations turn to what has been done to the cars since last year, what Beam have you bought or what are you building now. We all come to enjoy, not to worry about who has the best car nor do we make derogatory remarks about other's pride and joy. If someone asks a question about how something on their car should be or is this an original option they will get answers. No secrets!

 

[Austin Healer]

Not to argue your point but these are Sunbeams. We pick up the judging sheets for our cars at the east coast Uniteds just as we do at the SUNI events. We know what the judges saw and what points were deducted as well as our total scores. It sounds like the Healey owners go into this as a competition just like playing a sport but not showing anyone what the score was but only being told who won the game. It almost sounds like the organizers and some owners don't respect other owners enough to talk about what they may see different on Joe or Charlie's car. That prevents the owner knowing what to change to improve their car. That's being selfish. I remember a well known west coaster telling us that TE/AE folks show up for the family reunion and many conversations turn to what has been done to the cars since last year, what Beam have you bought or what are you building now. We all come to enjoy, not to worry about who has the best car nor do we make derogatory remarks about other's pride and joy. If someone asks a question about how something on their car should be or is this an original option they will get answers. No secrets!

No, that's not the case at all. You can go online and purchase a copy of the Austin Healey Concours Guidelines prior to any event. We encourage people to buy them as a guide for their restorations. we look at it as a "restoration aid". This way they know what to expect and what we consider to be accurate at the time of publication of the latest copy of the guidelines. We also state clearly that where their car deviates from our guidelines that they can document how their car was... This helps us improve the guidelines to incorporate areas that we may not have complete knowledge of. We provide the judging sheets and the areas that were deducted so that the owner can improve their cars if they wish to have them re-inspected in the future. Our stated goal is to improve the knowledge base and resources so as to assist owners in more accurate restorations. What we don't do, is tell them how many points were deducted or where. We specifically did this to avoid the inevitable "dick measuring" contest that arises from giving out point totals.

it would be completely counter to our stated goals to keep things "secret". All that does is breed suspicion and destroy any positive effects we might have.

The hope was that no owner would parade around the meet, saying, "My car scored higher than yours"... or behaving like a 3 year old in a school yard. We have found that people get along better when they are not made to feel inferior to other people. Obviously, an odd concept in this day and age.

 

[Klaus and Cary]

Thanks for this.

I do not look at the archives. I was surprised when we replaced the weather stripping on the hard top and found pozi-drive screws. Glad my wife bought me that fancy Festool set with just about every screw tip you can think of. Made life much easier.

 

[65beam]

No, that's not the case at all. You can go online and purchase a copy of the Austin Healey Concours Guidelines prior to any event. We encourage people to buy them as a guide for their restorations. we look at it as a "restoration aid". This way they know what to expect and what we consider to be accurate at the time of publication of the latest copy of the guidelines. We also state clearly that where their car deviates from our guidelines that they can document how their car was... This helps us improve the guidelines to incorporate areas that we may not have complete knowledge of. We provide the judging sheets and the areas that were deducted so that the owner can improve their cars if they wish to have them re-inspected in the future. Our stated goal is to improve the knowledge base and resources so as to assist owners in more accurate restorations. What we don't do, is tell them how many points were deducted or where. We specifically did this to avoid the inevitable "dick measuring" contest that arises from giving out point totals.

it would be completely counter to our stated goals to keep things "secret". All that does is breed suspicion and destroy any positive effects we might have.

The hope was that no owner would parade around the meet, saying, "My car scored higher than yours"... or behaving like a 3 year old in a school yard. We have found that people get along better when they are not made to feel inferior to other people. Obviously, an odd concept in this day and age.

No, that's not the case at all. You can go online and purchase a copy of the Austin Healey Concours Guidelines prior to any event. We encourage people to buy them as a guide for their restorations. we look at it as a "restoration aid". This way they know what to expect and what we consider to be accurate at the time of publication of the latest copy of the guidelines. We also state clearly that where their car deviates from our guidelines that they can document how their car was... This helps us improve the guidelines to incorporate areas that we may not have complete knowledge of. We provide the judging sheets and the areas that were deducted so that the owner can improve their cars if they wish to have them re-inspected in the future. Our stated goal is to improve the knowledge base and resources so as to assist owners in more accurate restorations. What we don't do, is tell them how many points were deducted or where. We specifically did this to avoid the inevitable "dick measuring" contest that arises from giving out point totals.

it would be completely counter to our stated goals to keep things "secret". All that does is breed suspicion and destroy any positive effects we might have.

The hope was that no owner would parade around the meet, saying, "My car scored higher than yours"... or behaving like a 3 year old in a school yard. We have found that people get along better when they are not made to feel inferior to other people. Obviously, an odd concept in this day and age.

Can we now get back to Sunbeams and the many other Rootes cars that were built over the years. Your main topic of discussion at any time seems to center mainly on Austin Healeys. You tout Moss but they do not stock Sunbeam parts. If you're working on a Sunbeam then support your local Sunbeam parts house. The two that still exist have been into Rootes only for many years. I've bought from both. TE/AE includes all cars built by Rootes. Where else do you find a Minx Estate or a 1969 Alpine fastback on the show field? We had those at the United last week plus a Type D Harrington that is one of a hand full built. I can remember the days when we had Crickets on the show field. Everyone had a great time two weeks ago with the topic seeming to be centered on Rootes cars.

 

[michael-king]

Topic was started 100% on sunbeams and the correct hardware for them.

An incorrect assertion was made that the info was available in the parts manuals.

At least the OP digression stayed on cars.. not their business, inability to use emails, their overblow life story etc....