Toploader choice and ratios?

[AHudson777]

Hi fans, researching a new transmission and best ratios for a Tiger. Attempted a search and must not be entering the right phrases.

Any guidance on transmission choices (looked briefly at the T5, too much work in my estimation) for a car that will not be tracked, but mainly to be a pleasant street crusier?

As always, thanks in advance.

 

[Cal44]

I find that the stock gearing (wide ratio) seems just peachy for round town. I prefer the long legs of the gearing (and a red head). Mine is a 2.88 rear end.

A top loader is a wonderful transmission and can take gobs of horse power. Your other option is to reduce the ratios and make it a close ratio trans, I don't suggest it as you will be shifting more.

The question is what do you want?

Mike

 

[cadreamn67]

I think most people will agree with Mike's perspective. The wide ratio trans is what is in the Mark II and is easier to launch from a stop since your clutch doesn't have to be slipped as much to get going. Anyone who has ever been stuck in a stop and go construction zone crawl or freeway traffic jam and had a close ratio trans in their Tiger knows of what I speak.

One thing to keep in mind is what is your rear end ratio. If you have a LSD was the ratio changed to something different than the stock 2.88? It is your overall ratio (trans x rear end ratio) that really matters. Some people changed to a higher numerical rear end ratio to get better launches, etc. with the close ratio. Of course, you end up with higher rpms on the highway at cruise. Bad for gas mileage (including carb secondaries will probably be open) and general comfort level for most people.

There is a member of the forum who has a pretty interesting set-up. He put in a special low 1st gear in his wide ratio and a 2.77 final rear end gear ratio. That gives lower 4th gear highway rpms and all the usual benefits of the wide ratio. Hopefully he will see this thread and share the details.

Also keep in mind that there may be bell housing interface issues to be dealt with if you are swapping a wide ratio trans into a car with originally built for a narrow ear mount close ratio trans. Can be done fairly easily, you just need to know it needs to be addressed. A different thread for that discussion!

Hope some of that helps!

Gene

 

[AHudson777]

Hey folks, thanks so much for that. I don't need clutch frying launches, so am far more inclined to the wide ratio. I'm after easy to modulate take up, relaxed highway speed cruising.

Next up -

Is there such thing as a 'clutch helper' or reducer arm/spring set up? I know this is a vague question, but 911s and Panteras both have aftermarket setups allowing for a bit of effort reduction. Didn't know if the Tiger world had this, or if it was even a concern.

 

[Cal44]

Since the Tiger is a hydraulic system it takes little effort to work the clutch pedal. That of course is, "if" the system is working correctly. We just installed new parts on Tig............smooth as a grease skillet.

Knowing little about 911's, the factory setup has been fine. The hydraulic clutch started in the '87 model year 911 with the G50 transmission and I have never heard one complaint about clutch pressure problems.
I do know some guys with skinny legs that own 911's, even they don't have a problem.
Since I'm not smarter than one or a team of German engineers...........
I got nothin'

Mike

 

[chirodoc]

Transmission options

In the planning stages of my 65 tiger restoration I did the research of digging out the multiple stories of T-5 installations.
Tom Hall's conversion is a properly engineered setup but has a budget buster price tag. Dale A'.s setup with and AMC tailshaft is unobtainable here in the flyover country. The S-10 transmission alters the shifter position too far forward and requires surgury on the transmission tunnel. Modern Driveline has their kit for a Falcon that supposedly comes close to the stock location. But close only counts in horseshoes. At the SEMA show Keisler engineering showed their modified t-46 5 speed that directly bolts up to a 6 bolt ford bellhousing. There are multple shifter locations, and it is reported that one option puts the shifter with half an inch away from the stock location. At $2600 each, I might have second thoughts? Realistically do I really need a 5th gear, since the car seldomly is on the feeway and then it runs at 4000 rpm with a 3.54 rear gear.
Since my big planning session I have purchased a newly rebuilt balanced and blueprinted 5 bolt short block so I'll stick with a my toploader and 289 and opt for a set of GOOD aluminum heads. ROGER

 

[michael-king]

For what its worth.. i thin the wide ratio would be much more fun around town, easier on the clutch, easier to get underway.. and quicker off the mark.

As for the T5.. if i was building a car now.. i would have one. I disagree they are a track option, they are more applicable for street.. i drove 350 miles yesterday in the tiger and i would have loved an OD 5th.. knock down the revs, noise and give the motor a rest.. not to mention save a HECK OF A LOT OF FUEL!

 

[AHudson777]

Since the Tiger is a hydraulic system it takes little effort to work the clutch pedal. That of course is, "if" the system is working correctly. We just installed new parts on Tig............smooth as a grease skillet.

Knowing little about 911's, the factory setup has been fine. The hydraulic clutch started in the '87 model year 911 with the G50 transmission and I have never heard one complaint about clutch pressure problems.
I do know some guys with skinny legs that own 911's, even they don't have a problem.
Since I'm not smarter than one or a team of German engineers...........
I got nothin'

Mike

Very helpful input. I'm all into the old stuff, so my 86 Carrera is last of the old clunky 915 non hydraulic boxes (they still won LeMans a few times with this dinosaur!). Has a factory helper spring upgrade.

If the Toploader is smooth and 'relatively' low effort in the Tiger, I'm fine. I've got a Pantera that takes all my patience and strength in traffic, don't need more of that!

In the planning stages of my 65 tiger restoration I did the research of digging out the multiple stories of T-5 installations.
Tom Hall's conversion is a properly engineered setup but has a budget buster price tag. Dale A'.s setup with and AMC tailshaft is unobtainable here in the flyover country. The S-10 transmission alters the shifter position too far forward and requires surgury on the transmission tunnel. Modern Driveline has their kit for a Falcon that supposedly comes close to the stock location. But close only counts in horseshoes. At the SEMA show Keisler engineering showed their modified t-46 5 speed that directly bolts up to a 6 bolt ford bellhousing. There are multple shifter locations, and it is reported that one option puts the shifter with half an inch away from the stock location. At $2600 each, I might have second thoughts? Realistically do I really need a 5th gear, since the car seldomly is on the feeway and then it runs at 4000 rpm with a 3.54 rear gear.
Since my big planning session I have purchased a newly rebuilt balanced and blueprinted 5 bolt short block so I'll stick with a my toploader and 289 and opt for a set of GOOD aluminum heads. ROGER

I'm with you. Big bucks for small gain is not my goal. Kinda having a nostalgic urge with the Tiger anyway, so a toploader it is. Will probably stick with the 2.88, but go posi on the rear.

For what its worth.. i thin the wide ratio would be much more fun around town, easier on the clutch, easier to get underway.. and quicker off the mark.

As for the T5.. if i was building a car now.. i would have one. I disagree they are a track option, they are more applicable for street.. i drove 350 miles yesterday in the tiger and i would have loved an OD 5th.. knock down the revs, noise and give the motor a rest.. not to mention save a HECK OF A LOT OF FUEL!

You obviously drive your car a LOT! Whoa, 350 miles, that 's fantastic.

In a perfect world, and unlimited budget, I 'might' choose the 5 speed to. But good cruising, more relaxed revs is part of the reason I'd prefer the 2.88 to the 3.07 in the 4 speed. Guess I'll have to make do.

 

[michael-king]

You obviously drive your car a LOT! Whoa, 350 miles, that 's fantastic.

In a perfect world, and unlimited budget, I 'might' choose the 5 speed to. But good cruising, more relaxed revs is part of the reason I'd prefer the 2.88 to the 3.07 in the 4 speed. Guess I'll have to make do.

For what it's worth... i think with current fuel prices the TH kit will likely pay itself back over a couple of years (doesnt mean you have the $ at the start.. but you know what i mean) Yesterday fuel for 98RON here was $1.61 per litre... i spent $172 on the good juice in the day.. still have 3/4 of a tank left after the last stop on the way home... but at just on 20mpg overall... it ads up fast!... willpost some pics of the trip later today

 

[0neoffive]

Ratios vs ratios

Never saw the need for an OD gear in a Tiger with a good 2.88 rear. If your on the track and cutting lap times, then all & everything is fair game. But for casual play time, leave it alone. The red line in our baby SBF 289 is 6700 and if you do the math spinning a 23" diameter tyre, the blood will drain from your knuckles long before the car stops gaining ground. For those who will ask, the VASCAR time thru a measured mile was 168.3 and the car did not float but actually seemed to crouch in the nose. Had the experience & the boast, but will never play that song again thanks. I did take the HEHE apart and stick a wide ratio cluster in it; there sure is a subtle comfy difference in the start up and shift points.

 

[michael-king]

Randy,

appreciate your point.. but to be honest, sitting on a long boring highway i'd love to be spinning closer to 2000rpm (or less) at 60mph than 3000. The tiger has so much torque it can handle the tall gears, 5th would get you places with a minimum of fuss.. and fuel

 

[cadreamn67]

Michael, although it may seem otherwise, this is actually a serious question: Is your 20 mpg figure based on imperial gallons? I am curious as to what one can really expect these days. Of course stage of mods, gear ratios and so on are all big variables. When my 260 was new and totally stock, I seem to remember I would get about 22 mpg (US) the highway in road trips at about 65 mph average, with leaded, non-ethenol blended gas of course.

Cheers, Gene

 

[michael-king]

Gene,

Yes imperial MPG..

US Gallons = 3.79 litres
IMP Gallons = 4.57 litres

so my 20mpg was 14.2L/100kms... which is quite heavy really.. on this trip there were large sections at 110kph, on my normal long runs i'm limited to 80-100kph (50-62mph)

I am running a 3.07 rear with 195/60/14 dunlop direzza tyres, engine is a FMS 340hp GT40 crate, mallory unilite ignition, weiand intake and edelbrock 600 carb for what its worth.

 

[cadreamn67]

Michael, many thanks for the extra info. As for the for what its worth part, may I say it a very nice combination surely worth a lot

Cheers, Gene

 

[0neoffive]

More to ponder

This morning I returned a customer's 1966 Mustang (with permission), 128 miles one way. 225 HP 289, 5 speed tremec, old automatic 2:73 rear. Very nice shifting ratios and smooth low rpm cruise. I did notice a down shift need on good hills even at speed. BUT, it does have me thinking about a clone Tiger project for future. rw

 

[Maliburevue]

Ultra Wide Ratio Toploader

I am the guy Gene was talking about with the ultra wide ratio toploader. When I installed my positraction, I kept my 2.88 gears. I did, however, convert my close ratio tranny to a wide ratio setup and installed a 2.90 first gear from David Kee Toploaders instead of the factory 2.78 first gear. Behind my 400+ hp 331 stroker I have a phenomenal hole shot. 4th gear is about 3000 rpm at 70 mph, since I am running smaller 13" tires (21.25" diam). 23" tires would drop my engine speed ~300 rpms on the highway. This ultra wide ratio tranny makes the Tiger much more tractable around town, no more burning up the clutch at every stop, better spread of the gears (since I have such a large torque band), less shifting, lower rpms on the highway and consequently quieter, better gas mileage (as if I really care, come on, it's a Tiger), and the toploader is unbreakable. The whole tranny conversion cost me only about $200. The new wide ratio parts were about $450 and I sold the used close ratio parts on ebay for $250. A heck of a lot cheaper than a 5 speed conversion and I didn't have to cut up the transmission tunnel.

Although I am presently running 2.88 rearend gears, when I get time I am going to install 2.72 rearend gears. Everybody knows the Tiger rearend will handle 2.88, 3.07, 3.23, 3.31, 3,54 and 3.73 gear ratios with the existing differential unit, but most Tiger owners are unaware that it will also accept 2.72 gears, although they were never offered from the factory, since they come with a 26 spline pinion gear. The 2.72 gears are found in Jeep Wagoneers and Ford F150s from the 80s. Sunbeam Specialties carries the fine spline pinion flange for these gears. Compared to the 2.88 rearend gears, the 2.72 rearend gears will reduce my 2.90 first gear to a 2.74, almost the same as the original factory 2.78 first gear, yet will give me a 6% overdrive in 4th. This will drop my engine speed another ~150 rpms on the highway. This setup starts to approach the 5 speed rpm range without the hassle, cost and body modifications involved.

Gary

 

[Maliburevue]

Tiger Transmission and Positraction

AHudson777,

I have developed a multi-sheet Excel workbook for determining all possible transmission and rearend gear ratio setups for your Tiger. It also calculates and plots engine rpm range and shift points in each gear for close and wide ratio 4 speeds, as well as 5 speeds.

I can also supply you with the correct positraction for your Tiger.

Contact me off forum at maliburevue@yahoo.com

Gary

P.S. I have had a couple of Panteras too and they were a handfull around town. Love that gate shifter.

 

[Maliburevue]

Cheap Gas

Chirodoc/Roger,

I agree totally with spending the money on aluminum heads. Aluminum heads dissipate the heat so well, I can run my aluminum head 331 stroker with ~10:1 compression on 89 octane pump gas without even the slightest pinging or knocking or run on after shut down.

Gary