Questions Regarding Original RT Side Exhaust Header

[Fordlandia]

While "restoring" a set of original Tiger cast iron exhaust manifolds, I did some research regarding the "unique" to the Tiger right side original manifold. At some point (apparently) during the prototype development of the Tiger, it became apparent that the existing right side (U.S. passenger side) SBF manifold (standard to the 260-V8 and 289 Ford vehicles) would not work for the Tiger.

I have some questions regarding this "Tiger only" manifold. Admittedly, it is just my curiosity that resulted in this message. However, I'm thinking a few other owners might enjoy a bit of Tiger trivia.

1. Did Ford Motor Company do the design and sourcing of this unique manifold, or was it Rootes?

2. The manifold has a "DarCast" logo and non-Ford part number 1981004 on one side of the manifold (see photo). It also has another number: a small "1" followed by "DA 2120" and what may be a very faint "B" (?). Can someone clarify those designations? Is the 1981004 number the Rootes PN?

3. The manifolds were cast in the mid-60's. I originally thought Ford might have had a U.S. Foundry do the casting, but found that the DarCast foundry was a UK company. I find references to various "DarCast" companies (eg. DarCast Crankshaft Company) but nothing about the city the foundry was located in.

4. So, here's a real trivia question: Did Ford ship the engines to Rootes (A) with the standard right side exhaust, which was replaced by Rootes with the DarCast manifold, (B) without any right side manifold knowing Rootes would install the unique manifold, or (C) did DarCast ship the manifolds to Ford in the U.S. for installation before the engines shipped (seems unlikely).

The answers to the above obviously have no useful purpose. But, curiosity got the best of me.

Bill Waite
Grand Rapids, MI

 

[rfraser]

According to Norm Miller it is BARCAST - "Ford arranged for the production of these manifold and supplied them with the engines."
Since Ford sourced these manifolds, I think BARCAST was a foundry in the USA. If by some chance they were made in the UK, Ford would keep it within the Ford Company, Dagenham Ford UK.

Rootes part number - 1224642
BARCAST casting number DA-21120B
Ford did the design work and sent the drawings to Rootes for their records. Rootes drafted their own series of assembly drawings for the part.

Ron Fraser

 

[Fordlandia]

Hi Ron,

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you (and it appears, Norm Miller, who I also respect very much). As evidence of my thinking, I submit the following:

1. If you Google "Barcast Foundry" there are no results, but one of the "Did You Mean?" options is "Darcast Foundry."

2. In the 1960's (and through at least the 1980's) there was a foundry in the UK (actually foundries) named Darcast. Not only did one of those foundries produce the Tiger right side casting, but also a number of other British vehicle exhaust headers. Examples follow:

(A) Rover V8 https://www.autoboerderij.nl/produc...an-8-large-bore-exhaust-manifolds-by-darcast/

(B) Other Rover V8 manifolds Manifold Exhaust Right OE For Defender Discovery Range Rover V8 ERR2533 Sivar

(C) Triumph TR3 exhaust manifold: https://www.ebay.com/itm/3261783911...4GPV5J&hash=item4bf1bf449e:g:r90AAOSwikFmXfQL

3. If Ford Motor Company had indeed designed and sourced the unique Tiger manifold, it would have had a Ford Part Number. It doesn't... it has a Darcast part number.

So, I believe that the information you supplied is likely not accurate. I believe all of my original questions are still unanswered:

1. Did Ford Motor Company do the design and sourcing of this unique manifold, or was it Rootes?

2. The manifold has a "DarCast" logo and non-Ford part number 1981004 on one side of the header (see photo). It also has another number: a small "1" followed by "DA 2120" and what may be a very faint "B" (?). Can someone clarify those designations? Is the 1981004 number the Rootes PN?

3. The manifolds were cast in the mid-60's. I originally thought Ford might have had a U.S. Foundry do the casting, but found that the DarCast foundry was a UK company. I find references to various "DarCast" companies (eg. DarCast Crankshaft Company) but nothing about the city the foundry was located in.

4. So, here's a real trivia question: Did Ford ship the engines to Rootes (A) with the standard right side exhaust, which was replaced by Rootes with the DarCast manifold, (B) without any right side manifold knowing Rootes would install the unique manifold, or (C) did DarCast ship the manifolds to Ford in the U.S. for installation before the engines shipped (seems unlikely).

Regards,

Bill Waite
Grand Rapids, MI

 

[rfraser]

Bill - excellent research - I don't know the history of the Tiger exhaust manifold. I only state what I have read.

I do see a difference in the registered LOGOS - DARCAST logo is different than the logo on the Tiger exhaust manifold, the outline designs are different.
If the parts were from the same foundry I expect to see the exact same logo design.

The exhaust manifold part design has to start with Ford, they own the original Ford drawings and specifications for the 260-cu. in. exhaust manifold, then you need Ford's permission to cast the part which has Ford parts inserted for the choke heat riser. Ford has always been very controlling about things like this plus inhouse Ford venders reduce cost.

I don't know the true story, maybe someone does and will write in.

 

[Fordlandia]

Thanks, Ron. As to the change in the logo design, the unique Tiger manifold were produced in the 1963 - 1964 timeframe. The other headers I included were produced later (eg 1968). Merely an updated logo. In any event, there is no record whatsoever of a "Barcast" foundry. The Tiger right side manifold (along with those other British manifolds depicted) were cast by a company in the UK named "Darcast." I have posted the same thread on the UK Tiger forum, hopefully someone there will respond with more information.

 

[Fordlandia]

Due to a serious case of brain fade, I have consistently been referring to this part as an exhaust header. Dan W. sent me a PM. He correctly pointed out that this thread is about the right side exhaust MANIFOLD, not header!
I have attempted to edit the posts to correct that error. However, I do not believe I can correct the subject I used.

 

[Theorangetiger]

Although I am leaning toward the Darcast side, I must point out that the examples with the cast logo different to the one on the Tiger manifolds are from both before and after the Tiger production years. TR3s were produced from 1955 to 1962.

Being a relatively small outfit, I can see them using slightly different logos on different items. It's not like they were using an internationally recognized symbol.

Here's another example from eBay U.K. with a logo like the one used on Tiger manifolds. The seller doesn't give an application for the part but being on eBay U.K. and the look of it, I would wager it's a British made part. Credit to anyone who can identify the manifold and the vehicles on which it was used.





https://www.ebay.com/itm/335273323102?itmmeta=01J1Z4KP07P031DJMTG4JS16AE&hash=item4e0fd8ea5e:g:6b8AAOSwcgdk1krS&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA4HyVIv5PEkcsO/ashujRNVEk79ZVy+y/iB7G3iZIN/N3urwJNQhFU5l73D2PYdCmiot6ixXvdO3yP0sf3rspcz/0HJ0O+3t6FXsZ1rJSaDADqqbgEzzUPL8k/tOjMI8QSXFCfvlDxr3F57sipVW14mjVUEVJ/MYwJhPS0LF6p+9MAXZxSiDTAD9BNJTuGkZtaQRIzVzA2SjV6ZDd4qbNu280VhixV77iwKQ6nU+YvxGnfAtO/ryxF0cftW/z2XIJSet1UsD4DAonT5l/7EHXPOc4Vc08o/PDlO166ZUS3EhT|tkp:BFBMnuDO5I9k

 

[Fordlandia]

Note to the "Theorangetiger": You are leaning in the right direction. Hopefully, the following will push you all the way.

I have uncovered additional information today which confirms (100% in my opinion) that the logo on the Tiger's RT Exhaust Manifold is DARCAST.

In a "tigers@autox.team.net" email, Ron said "We are looking for photo proof or written proof to seal this case." Hopefully the following information will include enough proof.

1. Ends up that from 1915 through 1980 there was a company named "Dartmouth Auto Castings" located in Smethwick (UK). In later years that company operated three (3) separate foundries. It ends up that Darcast was not the name of any foundry. Rather Dartmouth Auto Castings used the DART in Dartmouth and the CAST in Castings to create its logo: DarCast.

2. An October 1951 print advertisement (attached to this message) clearly shows the Darcast logo. Also attached is another print ad from 1965. That ad lists the type of castings they produced.

3. On the unique Tiger manifold, there is a number "DA21120." I looked at some of the other exhaust manifolds the company produced, and they also have unique identifiers starting with "DA." I submit: "DA" was likely used as the prefix of "Dartmouth Auto" part numbers.

4. Separately, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever posted a photograph of the RT side exhaust manifold with "Barcast" in the logo.

Best Regards,

Bill Waite

 

[IvaTiger]

While "restoring" a set of original Tiger cast iron exhaust manifolds, I did some research regarding the "unique" to the Tiger right side original manifold. At some point (apparently) during the prototype development of the Tiger, it became apparent that the existing right side (U.S. passenger side) SBF manifold (standard to the 260-V8 and 289 Ford vehicles) would not work for the Tiger.

I have some questions regarding this "Tiger only" manifold. Admittedly, it is just my curiosity that resulted in this message. However, I'm thinking a few other owners might enjoy a bit of Tiger trivia.

1. Did Ford Motor Company do the design and sourcing of this unique manifold, or was it Rootes?

2. The manifold has a "DarCast" logo and non-Ford part number 1981004 on one side of the header (see photo). It also has another number: a small "1" followed by "DA 2120" and what may be a very faint "B" (?). Can someone clarify those designations? Is the 1981004 number the Rootes PN?

3. The manifolds were cast in the mid-60's. I originally thought Ford might have had a U.S. Foundry do the casting, but found that the DarCast foundry was a UK company. I find references to various "DarCast" companies (eg. DarCast Crankshaft Company) but nothing about the city the foundry was located in.

4. So, here's a real trivia question: Did Ford ship the engines to Rootes (A) with the standard right side exhaust, which was replaced by Rootes with the DarCast manifold, (B) without any right side manifold knowing Rootes would install the unique manifold, or (C) did DarCast ship the manifolds to Ford in the U.S. for installation before the engines shipped (seems unlikely).

The answers to the above obviously have no useful purpose. But, curiosity got the best of me.

Bill Waite
Grand Rapids, MI

View attachment 19582

1 DA 21120 faint B ?

 

[rfraser]

Bill - excellent work, I'm glad you dug into this subject.

Rootes redesigned the Rt exhaust manifold to Tiger specifications and DARCAST cast them.
the small 1, I believe is a mold # - I have a small 2 in front of the DA #.
I found that the 1981004 is the Rootes Rough Part Number for this exhaust manifold.

The Parts List indicates a different # for the MK II exhaust manifold - 1236160, my guess, this is just an updated # but needs to be explored.

 

[Fordlandia]

Ron,

Thanks Ron. There are still a few "loose ends" that may be very hard or impossible to tie down with any certainty.

As you said earlier, it seems likely that Ford at least assisted in the design. However, because the manifold was designed specifically for a Rootes vehicle, my guess is that Rootes actually sourced the production with "Darcast" with a Rootes part number.

Still undetermined is which company, and where, the manifold was actually installed on the engine. I think (again just a guess) that once produced in the UK it never left that country. The added cost of shipping to Ford's engine plant would seem unnecessary. Or was it?

Ford could have shipped the engines without the right side manifold attached. That seems unlikely, as they would have to temporarily install (and then remove) a manifold for test firing at the plant before shipping.

So, maybe the manifolds were shipped to, and installed, at the Ford engine plant?

Of course, the answers really don't "matter." But, still they would be nice to know as part of the Tiger's full story.

Bill

 

[rfraser]

I agree, there will always be some loose ends with this story.

All Tiger engines were cast and assembled at the Cleveland Foundry, sent to the Port of Cleveland and shipped to Ford Dagenham, UK. This makes the most sense to me.
The engines were then transported to the Humber Plant where Tiger parts were installed, and some Ford parts modified into Tiger parts.
It would seem logical that the Humber Plant received the exhaust manifolds, but I have seen no paperwork to support this claim.

I have seen a Ford Assembly Order sheet for Tiger engine that states "parts are removed from base engine and scrapped" but I do not have a description of what parts.

Rootes could have shipped the exhaust manifolds to the Cleveland Foundry. They would use the same ship that brought the engines. Ford was buying Dagenham transmissions for 6-cylinder Falcons and Mustangs. Shipping costs may have been minor.

Rootes made a multimillion-dollar deal with Ford for these engines so some give and take surely occurred.

Ron

 

[Fordlandia]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still former Ford or Rootes employees who know the answers. A related side story:

Last summer I took the Tiger to the annual "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" British Car Show at the Gilmore museum. An older guy (just guessing mid-80's) came up and said he worked at the "Pressed Steel" stamping plant in the UK. As you know, they stamped body panels for Rootes and other British Car companies.

During much of his time at Pressed Steel he worked on the production of Alpine and Tiger rear quarter panels. After the company was purchased by BMC, he took a position with VW in Germany. Not too long after that he was transfered to one of their plants in the U.S. He stayed here ever since, is a dual citizen, and finished his career at Fisher Body.

He really enjoyed the car show because Rootes was the featured marque and it brought back a lot of memories for him.

 

[Franchi]

Bill - excellent work, I'm glad you dug into this subject.

Rootes redesigned the Rt exhaust manifold to Tiger specifications and DARCAST cast them.
the small 1, I believe is a mold # - I have a small 2 in front of the DA #.
I found that the 1981004 is the Rootes Rough Part Number for this exhaust manifold.

The Parts List indicates a different # for the MK II exhaust manifold - 1236160, my guess, this is just an updated # but needs to be explored.

I have been searching for a photo of a MKII right exhaust manifold, hard to find as there aren't too many lying around from people putting headers on the 500+ MKIIs. Did find a picture on an old BAT auction, link below.
I believe the MKII manifolds (in the photo) are the ones on the left because they don't have exhaust pipe studs (Tigers used bolts) the manifolds on the right are probably MK1/260's as they have studs which most people switch to as it is easier to remove nuts than studs when installing/removing the exhaust pipe.
The MKII manifold doesn't look any different from the MKI, I can't make out the casting number on the MKII manifold.
Now why would Rootes make a MKII specific manifold? Ford used the same manifolds on both the 260 and 289 engines. In 1966 Ford changed the manifolds slightly (still came straight out the rear) so they could install smog injector tubes in the heads. Since Tigers didn't have smog equipment, why change the MKIi right manifold? Ford did change the carburetor choke tube fitting lines in 1965, but the Tiger didn't.
When Rootes got the MKII/289 engines from Ford, they would have the new carburetor choke tube lines to the carburetor, but why didn't Rootes just use the old MKi/260 lines on the MKII? I don't know how much 260/289 choke tube lines differ. The MKI (Ford C40E-9819-A) and MKII (no Ford #) choke hot air tube/lines have different part numbers, but the breather tube (manifold to the air cleaner) are the same number (no Ford part #).
Why Rootes would go to the expense to make a new MKII manifold when they could have just made a new choke hot air tube? Maybe the Rootes parts book is wrong?

David Franchi

BAT auction https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-sunbeam-tiger-43/

 

[Fordlandia]

I deleted this posting, as the photo Ron has supplied is of much higher quality and all of the numbers are very clear.

 

[rfraser]

It is simply one of those questions on this subject. Did Rootes only update their part number for the MK II or is there more to the story?
I'm still looking for a clear photo of the stock Mk II Rt exhaust manifold to settle this question.
Ron

 

[rfraser]

Here is a picture of a MK II Rt exhaust manifold from Joe Chiappetta via Bill Harris.

All the numbers are the same as the MK I manifold so Rootes only updated their part number for the 289 engines.

If anyone has an original MK II manifold with different markings, please send a good picture.
Ron

 

[0neoffive]

Consider the economics of the moment, I doubt that Rootes would have fired up a different casting.

 

[michael-king]

Randy ... You have seen a series 3 Alpine right? Never doubt Rootes ability to make hugely irresponsible financial decisions.... 🫠

Consider the economics of the moment, I doubt that Rootes would have fired up a different casting.

 

[65beam]

Wasn't Chrysler calling the shots at Rootes during the Mk ll production? Chrysler did move several key people over to Sunbeam.