Spindles and spline drives, what say you?

[cleandan]

Hello all, I am in the sloooowww process of rebuilding my 1966 Mk1A after a collision with the local wildlife. Because the car was bent, folded, spindled but fortunately not mutliated I will be taking the car totally apart. One aspect that has always intrigued me is possibly using spindle mount and spline drive wheels on my car. Now that it will get a full redo I have a greater opportunity to do the changes. I, however, have zero knowledge with this sort of set up. The car will be a somewhat modified (engine, suspension, brakes) kind of thing but remain fairly stock appearing from the outside with no wheel well or body mods other than possibly some hood scoop/vent that is period correct. How do the spindle wheels hold up on the street? Are there any hidden issues or would I simply install them correctly and forget them until bearing repacking? Who has run this set up and could you please give me your opinion. I mostly want to do this for the look and wheel options other than Mini-Lites, which the car currently wears.
Thanks and have a great day.

 

[Moondoggie]

\
I assume you are talking about knock off wheels that have an adapter
hub , knock off spiners and a Halibrand type wheel. I have had tons of experiance with AC Cobra wheels but have none when it comes to Tiger stuff but it's got to be similiar. Good Halibrand wheels work just fine and I have had way over 600 hp behind them on the street without problems. You do need to safety wire the spinners for street appications. I would not put wire wheels on my garbage cart so forget those. You need to remove the wheels
every so often to clean the threads and lubricate them with anti seize or they
will freeze on the adapter. I have had to cut two wheels off my Cobra due to
dirt locking up the adapter/spinner threads, these are class 3 threads so there
is no room for anything but antiseize. You will need a 5 lb lead hammer to remove them...no big deal. The real deal looks awesome and the fake bolt on
look alikes are junk.......I have 16"x8" panasports on my Tiger now and I like those since the tire availability is awesome and that is about the max size
you can fit without messing with wheel wells and fenders.

Bill

 

[A-Snake]

I think the question was about spline drive wheels not pin drives. Spline drive wheels are typically wire wheels, (painted or chromed) There are a few exceptions such as 'Americans' that are alloy wheels with a spline drive adapter. The knock offs are usually steel two-eared instead of aluminum three-eared, thus there is no dissimilar metal issue, so no seizing. It's important that the knockoff fits the taper and wheel properly. When it does, and they are tightened properly there is no need for safety wire. I would guess the only challenge is finding spline drive wheels in 13" that fit a Tiger.

My garbage cart doesn't have wire wheels, but my original AC 289 Cobra that I've owned for 25 years has had them from new
(All leaf-spring street Cobras came with wire wheels)

 

[michael-king]

I guess you have 2 options as discussed above, pin drive wheels where there are a series of studs that locate the wheel and a knock on spinner (nut) that secures it, or splined wheels where the wheel slides on a central spline and is secured by a kock on nut.

Tigers never had these as factory options, though the SCCA approved racing options allowed for knock-on halibrand wheels (5 hole kiddney beans) these were used on the HSC55 Tiger and the SCF74 Tiger (the shelby tiger also used some too but slightly different to the halibrands doane had made) The LeMans Tigers used a dunlop knock on alloy wheel too.

I have only seen a couple of sunbeam Tigers running thses types of wheels, the HSC55 still does, the fraser monster tiger, the LM cars. There is a black MKII Tiger in Germany (i thin kit was germany) that was running splined hubs and 15" chrome wire wheels, they looked to be 72 spoke. If you were gogint o put splined wheels on a tiger you would need to adpat hubs of something like a healey 3000 or aston, and would wan tto use a 72 spoke wheel otherwise you are going to destory the splines quickly and will break the spokes on anything but high end wires.

Maybe speak to Dayton wire wheels in the states about what they could do.. Borani could make them (and they do alloy rims with stainless spokes... but you would be looking at 8K + i would guess) You could use the alpine setup and have better wheels made with mor spokes.. but i think you will end up destroying the hubs quickly.

 

[Wilbur Bud]

Consider also that balancing of typical spline drive wheels is not so convenient. It's not impossible to do correctly, but you need to find a specialist or to buy/make an adapater so the rim locates properly on the balancer found in most tire shops. The difficulty is that spline drive wheels (keeping with the big Healey analogy since I've had one for 20+ years) have the outward locating surface on the outside of the cone instead of the inside, so the clamping device on the balancing machine has to locate on that surface and at the corret angle. I'd ask your local shops if they have the right pieces while you are considering to do this or not. Here's a better explanation with diagrams from folks at Dayton: http://www.daytonwirewheels.com/pdf/balancinginstructionsforspline.pdf

 

[65sunbeam]

The other option is to use a spline drive mag wheel. You can get these in sizes up to 15 inches and a variety of offsets. Pictured is an old spline drive Mini lite on my car. I thought the original wires looked better so that is what I am running. I just WISH I had a 289 Cobra with wires......! Eric

 

[michael-king]

Eric,

Those were the wheels off the yellow racer weren't they? Did you ever get that car out on the track (or running.. had a holed block IIRC) Also were the widths of those wheels front and back the same.. the yellow racer appeared to have a squared track, was it the wheels or the backs were spaced?

As for 289 with tripple laced wires and the AC spinners.. niiiiice.. or perhaps with some starbust halibrands.

 

[A-Snake]

Eric,

As for 289 with tripple laced wires and the AC spinners.. niiiiice.. or perhaps with some starbust halibrands.

You may be thinking of "Sunburst" wheels used on 427/428 Cobras. Those were aluminum and built by Kelsey-Hayes (7 1/2" x 15")

I agree they look nice on a 427 Cobra.

But...I've grown fond of my wires

 

[cleandan]

Thanks for the replys so far.
I must admit I used the wrong terminology when stating "spline" drive.
I do mean PIN drive and knock off/on wheels.
I am looking at wheels such as the Halibrand kidney beans as used on some racing vehicles back when our Tigers were new.
I WILL NOT be using wire wheels.
My car will end up having HP in the area of 400, give or take.
My car will run 15" or 16" wheels.
I do like the suggestion of balancing availibility, thank you. The odd nature of wheels such as this do make "regular repair" not so regular.
Thanks again and have a great day.

 

[65sunbeam]

Michael you have a great memory! Yes, the wheel is off the race car which is sleeping peacefully awaiting it's turn for repairs. I never measured the wheels to see if they are different widths/offsets-can't use spacers with splined hubs. Eric

 

[michael-king]

You may be thinking of "Sunburst" wheels used on 427/428 Cobras. Those were aluminum and built by Kelsey-Hayes (7 1/2" x 15")

I agree they look nice on a 427 Cobra.

But...I've grown fond of my wires

A snake, i may have got the wheel name wrong, the wheels i am thinking of look very similar to the "sunburst" (thanks for the correction.. i must have been thinking of sweets!) they are a simlar spoke design but only 6 spokes and were used on the 289 FIA cars along with the kidney bean halibrands. Here is a pic:

 

[michael-king]

Michael you have a great memory! Yes, the wheel is off the race car which is sleeping peacefully awaiting it's turn for repairs. I never measured the wheels to see if they are different widths/offsets-can't use spacers with splined hubs. Eric

Eric i was wondering if they had spaced the hub. The picture i am thinking of was a period shot of it coming up a level straight on a hill climb through some trees. The wheels front and rear apear to have the same offsets (shallow dish rim) but the backs are right in line with the rear wheel arch lip. Car looked to have a squared track.. so i guess if it was wheel width difference it would be somewhat obvious as it would have to be close to 2 inches.

 

[michael-king]

Thanks for the replys so far.
I must admit I used the wrong terminology when stating "spline" drive.
I do mean PIN drive and knock off/on wheels.
I am looking at wheels such as the Halibrand kidney beans as used on some racing vehicles back when our Tigers were new.
I WILL NOT be using wire wheels.
My car will end up having HP in the area of 400, give or take.
My car will run 15" or 16" wheels.
I do like the suggestion of balancing availibility, thank you. The odd nature of wheels such as this do make "regular repair" not so regular.
Thanks again and have a great day.

Dan speak to PS Wheels.. they do a HSC 55 halibrand Tiger replica wheels and in 15":
http://www.psvintagewheels.com/products.html

I thnk that PS did the repro knock-ons for Dave Stones HSC55 Tiger

 

[A-Snake]

Here is CSX2306 with FIA wheels from PS wheels. (Painted background)

 

[Cal44]

How neat is this.........Cobra guys hangin' out on the Tiger site.
Now, if some '62-'63 G (406 cu in.) code Galaxie and K code Ford guys come over, my life will be complete........

 

[A-Snake]

How neat is this.........Cobra guys hangin' out on the Tiger site.
Now, if some '62-'63 G (406 cu in.) code Galaxie and K code Ford guys come over, my life will be complete........

I'm here to learn about Tigers as B9471731 will be looking for a new home soon

 

[at the beach]

Pin Drives

When we duplicated the Shelby / Doanne Knock-off design I needed to change the bolt pattern to accomodate Panasport wheels. We used four 7/16" diameter pins on a 4-3/4" circle. Each pin is 3/4" in length.

The Hallibrands used in the day broke repeatedly which is why Doanne had to cast the HSC wheels. That was with engines that put out 350 HP at the flywheel. Today's Tigers race with much more than that at the rear wheels.

The repro wheels on the Dave's HSC Tiger were not made by Phil at PS. I don't think Dave will recommend the company that did the work to his worst enemy. If he had to do it again, I'd guess that Dave would talk to Phil a bit more about doing the job.

 

[michael-king]

There are 2 people who would be good to chime in on this. The owners of the LM Tiger and the Fraser "monster" Tiger. Both these cars when new ran knock on wheels, special cast magnesium alloy Dunlops (perhaps given the history of the fraser car they may have been transplanted from the LM to it).

Until recent times the Monster Tiger used dunlop drilled pin drive D type/MGA style wheels and the LM Tiger some sort of split rim. The Monster car has had some replicas made of the dunlops and i believe the LM Tiger is going through a similar process, but via a different supplier?

These wheels are 15" and i believe our moderator has posted pics of the wheels in the board from a historic meet about 12 months ago... mabye at willow springs?

Apart from PS wheels i have also seen this company: trigowheels.com .. though cant vouch anythtng from them, but at least PS wheels knows the dsunbeams and has made replicas of type HSC wheels.

 

[michael-king]

Here is CSX2306 with FIA wheels from PS wheels. (Painted background)

A Snake.. think these are the same PS wheels:


They are on a car of an ex-boss of mine, its a Kirkham 289 FIA.. he is now selling his toolroom copy Kirkham 427SC in the same colour.. the funny thing is he has owned a real 427, real 289 had one of john olsens 289 FIA's that were sactioned in the 90's and says the kirkhams offer the same experience.. I'd still love an original cobra.. but a tool room copy is not a bad option if you are short a few hundred $K.. though i hear many of the new kirkhams have modern brakes, better suspension and 5 speed etc... i'd think the orginal experience is enough...

think i am far enough off topic... can delete this post if anyone wants.

 

[cleandan]

How neat is this.........Cobra guys hangin' out on the Tiger site.
Now, if some '62-'63 G (406 cu in.) code Galaxie and K code Ford guys come over, my life will be complete........

Well, I am not certain if I fill the entire bill to make your life "complete" but...My Tiger is currently running a 1965 K-code 289 and I am really an FE guy by nature and a Galaxie nut to the core. Although I do not own a 62/63 G-code Galaxie I do own a 1966 Q-code 7-LITRE.