another fake Tiger

[Austin Healer]

This time on EbayUK... listed by private vendor B9472191HROFE This car should have round corner panels and a metal top cover. It has square corner panels and a vinyl top cover....

Ebay item # 134436936022

 

[michael-king]

Shaun,

I think add the VIN to the thread title... I thought the way they are trying to dance around the rebody is interesting.. it also implies when they did find a SV alpine donor it was the same colour as the Tiger that got scrapped.... And that when they did the rebody they didn't completely strip the car to bare metal... The the idea that because the VIN and colour code is listed in the BON as a justification..... Creative....

"This Sunbeam Tiger was originally a "barn find" and was rebuilt by the then chairman of the Sunbeam Tiger Owners Club. It was purchased by the seller's father in 1995 and was improved even further. The car was kept in careful storage for 18 years, rolled out, started, warmed, cleaned, and then put back in storage as other cars and interests took priority in the collection. A significant recommissioning and improvement work to make a good Tiger into one of the very best Tigers.

This Sunbeam Tiger has an interesting history. During the recent work on the car, the dashboard was removed and traces of the original blue factory paint were discovered, which supports the idea that the car still has its original body shell. This information is backed up by reference to the "book of Norman" which is a known source of information on these cars."

 

[Franchi]

For those who might have trouble finding the eBay auction.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13443693...6MJurXqNUvCJ8D8PwBniI0pLo=|tkp:Bk9SR_Lg0KXEYQ

 

[Austin Healer]

Like I told the owner of the car... what's in the 'Book of Norman' is meaningless as it pertains to this car. The chassis number is way too early to be a transition body. Besides, even if it were a transition car, it would still have metal top covers/doors. There were only 2 cars with a B947 prefix that had a vinyl top cover (B9479976 and B9479976) The car is a series 5 Alpine with the parts from B9472191HROFE... it's the same situation as the MED Blue car that was on BAT a couple of weeks ago. Riveting a Tiger chassis plate onto an Alpine does not make it a Tiger... only this car is even worse, as they didn't even try to rebody it with the correct series shell....

 

[bernd_st]

OMG. An absolute fake indeed.
This remininds me of a very proud new owner close to me showing up one day to show me his new "Tiger" and asking my opinion. Simple inspection revealed a battery box under the rear seat plus a single row oil cooler still in place behind the front valance. The car originally came from Canada and appearantly got "converted" over there. He paid 40k and I told him 20k would have been more than enough. He face turned pale and he wasn't happy however we still meet occasionally ;-). He enjoys the "roar" though...

 

[HolyCat]

OMG. An absolute fake indeed...

I guess that makes it a fake fake.

 

[bernd_st]

Definitely. We have a couple of double, if not triple fakes over here . Algers are nothing for me, but I know of at least 2 which are being built up at the moment in Germany. Buyers beware...

 

[0neoffive]

Some years ago, at an East Coast event, I saw a pair of very nice MK II Tigers from Canada. They are both fakes and very well done. I have no aversion to a "built" car. Just be up front and declare it, please.

 

[Austin Healer]

Just received a reply from Graham Vickery in the UK. The club knows that this car is a re-shell and has known about it for decades...

 

[65beam]

Restored using better body panels back in the day when value was nowhere close to what owners since are willing to pay. Look at some of the pricing for Tigers currently on E Bay and other sites. I know of one real Tiger that was so heavily modified that there wasn't enough left to issue TAC even though it was known to be real. I believe it's now in Europe. There's a well known race car that started out as a real Tiger but there probably isn't enough left to TAC it. Check the parts book and they listed complete body shells for Tigers with a different part number than the shells listed for Alpines.

 

[Austin Healer]

Restored using better body panels back in the day when value was nowhere close to what owners since are willing to pay. Look at some of the pricing for Tigers currently on E Bay and other sites. I know of one real Tiger that was so heavily modified that there wasn't enough left to issue TAC even though it was known to be real. I believe it's now in Europe. There's a well known race car that started out as a real Tiger but there probably isn't enough left to TAC it. Check the parts book and they listed complete body shells for Tigers with a different part number than the shells listed for Alpines.

Bob,

It's one thing to replace a panel, quite another to transfer the tags to a completely different shell, and a shell with the wrong series type as well. This car is well known to STOC as a re-shell. The UK club has known the car is a fraud for 30 years and has a list of such cars. What the owner is trying to do is nothing short of a fraud. Hopefully prospective buyers will contact STOC 1st before thinking about buying a Tiger there...

I understand what the climate is like in England... which is why a LOT of cars have completely different body shells... however, it's not a Tiger anymore.

As for TAC, you'd hope that they'd notice a car with a B947 prefixed tag wearing a series 5 body. One has round corner panels and metal top doors and the other has square corner panels and a vinyl top cover... I'm pretty sure that they do!

 

[65beam]

Bob,

It's one thing to replace a panel, quite another to transfer the tags to a completely different shell, and a shell with the wrong series type as well. This car is well known to STOC as a re-shell. The UK club has known the car is a fraud for 30 years and has a list of such cars. What the owner is trying to do is nothing short of a fraud. Hopefully prospective buyers will contact STOC 1st before thinking about buying a Tiger there...

I understand what the climate is like in England... which is why a LOT of cars have completely different body shells... however, it's not a Tiger anymore.

As for TAC, you'd hope that they'd notice a car with a B947 prefixed tag wearing a series 5 body. One has round corner panels and metal top doors and the other has square corner panels and a vinyl top cover... I'm pretty sure that they do!

No argument intended but the question I've brought up many times in the past is this. Complete shells were listed for sale thru the dealer parts system. The Alpine shells carried a different part number than the body shells listed in the Tiger parts book. If someone ordered a Tiger body shell was it a Tiger specific shell with mods done by Jenson or was it an Alpine shell requiring mods? Why would there have been two numbers if they sold the same shell? The Tiger parts book also shows body pieces that read "to be modified by customer". Does anyone have an answer as to why Rootes had a different number if intended to be a Tiger shell. Why have two parts numbers if they were buying the same body and use the Tiger part number, not an Alpine number. I was buying parts from Byers in Columbus when the cars were still being sold new. I was always asked what car and series I was buying for in order to get the correct part.

 

[HolyCat]

From the UK MOT (red is my edit):

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

So unless a replacement body is NEW, the original registration number is not to be transferred to the rebodied vehicle. I do not know when this became law. And there may be some appeal buried in the MOT regulations. And, no, I am not a lawyer, just a reader.

 

[65beam]

From the UK MOT (red is my edit):

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

So unless a replacement body is NEW, the original registration number is not to be transferred to the rebodied vehicle. I do not know when this became law. And there may be some appeal buried in the MOT regulations. And, no, I am not a lawyer, just a reader.

These are just the facts and brings up an age old question. WHAT IF? Many countries have different regulations versus what happens in the states. I live in a state where there are no yearly inspections of any kind and if a vehicle reaches a certain age then you can buy historical plates which are good for the next 50 years. I just bought historical tags for my 1985 Ford conversion van and it's now on my Hagerty policy with a set value. During that 50 year time frame there is no communication from the state concerning the vehicle. There are no fees, no request for proof of insurance and no taxes during the 50 years. There are no requests concerning mileage driven or whether it's roadable, in parts or modified. There was a change made a few years back to make the registration period 50 years instead of for life. If you pull up my BMV records you'll find there are several sets of historical plates listed for the cars that have been sold or in some cases scrapped and recycled. Those plates are in a drawer in my shop. This applies to many folks in this state. Anything could happen in 50 years if the BMV doesn't seem to care. There was a change made recently that says a scrap yard has to verify that the title has been voided but the problem is that the number of digets in a Beam VIN isn't the same number of digets as current vehicles. It seems the UK tolerated things if you were to buy a new body shell. There are currently body shells available for other British cars as well as U.S. cars. Regulations would vary from state to state and country to country. I'm thinking that no one has an answer why Rootes listed body shells available over the counter and no one seems to know if the Tiger shells were sent with the Jenson mods. Over the years I've asked these questions more than once.

 

[michael-king]

Without wanting to feed trolls or engage in "what if'ism"...

Rootes may have had a part number for the full body shell...but I would be very surprised if they ever held a blank shell as a full part... it would be likely they created a part number incase someone needed to order one for a reason.

As for Tigers .... There are certainly 2 known full shells used to body cars in the period.... Both by the factory...and both in the way/ and for the reasons many other british companies did at the time.... Reaplacing a wrecked works race/ rally car and switching the VIN to avoid paying taxes on the sale of a "new car"

The works rally Tiger AHP 294B had this happen. It was heavily crashed and a new donor car was used...in this case a finished Tiger was taken from the Jensen line and the VIN and works mods were transfered over... How a very early VIN car came to have square corner panels .. seen in period images too... The VIN of the donor car is known so if that VIN ever turns up... Questions would be asked

The first example I know was a stateside car... One that exists today.... similarly a works supported comp car...in this case.. a circuit car raced by Shelby. At the end of the season after several big hits and a brutal campaign at Nassau speed week it was given a Brand new Tiger shell ... This time I understand an empty shell...I don't believe it had a VIN and was straight off the Jensen line.. assume it was imported as ''parts" to avoid new car duty... And it received the donor cars parts... I'm not sure if this car ever carried a JAL as it may have been assigned one to get it onto the production line... The owner might be able to add more information or correct any errors by me.

In each case.. the donor body never had life as a registered or used car...so no murky history.

In the case of the circuit car... Body was a correct match for the replacement re: details.. and would comply to the UK requirements... Complete new car.

The rally car was a complete car . But never sold ... So it did have a VIN swap...which was illegal ( even then) .. but the car had never been registered so it didn't create a ghost car in the records.

As for a "new" Sunbeam body... The what if person was aware of the do as discussion of this year's ago... Big difference between a brand new repro body and a straight car with years of history with a different ID and as a different model.

Like e-types, MGB etc...if you can buy a new body and switch VIN it would add value to a normal tiger or alpine .. a no accident.. no rust fresh body.. and you can bet the seller wouldnt hide the change.

If it was a car with significant history.. rally car.. racer... Owned by a famous person etc... it would likely devale.. as the value was in that bodies unique history.

Making a V8 sunbeam alpine out of a rusted Tiger is fine....just don't swap the VIN.... The only reason to vin swap... Is to hide what's been done.

 

[65beam]

Without wanting to feed trolls or engage in "what if'ism"...

Rootes may have had a part number for the full body shell...but I would be very surprised if they ever held a blank shell as a full part... it would be likely they created a part number incase someone needed to order one for a reason.

As for Tigers .... There are certainly 2 known full shells used to body cars in the period.... Both by the factory...and both in the way/ and for the reasons many other british companies did at the time.... Reaplacing a wrecked works race/ rally car and switching the VIN to avoid paying taxes on the sale of a "new car"

The works rally Tiger AHP 294B had this happen. It was heavily crashed and a new donor car was used...in this case a finished Tiger was taken from the Jensen line and the VIN and works mods were transfered over... How a very early VIN car came to have square corner panels .. seen in period images too... The VIN of the donor car is known so if that VIN ever turns up... Questions would be asked

The first example I know was a stateside car... One that exists today.... similarly a works supported comp car...in this case.. a circuit car raced by Shelby. At the end of the season after several big hits and a brutal campaign at Nassau speed week it was given a Brand new Tiger shell ... This time I understand an empty shell...I don't believe it had a VIN and was straight off the Jensen line.. assume it was imported as ''parts" to avoid new car duty... And it received the donor cars parts... I'm not sure if this car ever carried a JAL as it may have been assigned one to get it onto the production line... The owner might be able to add more information or correct any errors by me.

In each case.. the donor body never had life as a registered or used car...so no murky history.

In the case of the circuit car... Body was a correct match for the replacement re: details.. and would comply to the UK requirements... Complete new car.

The rally car was a complete car . But never sold ... So it did have a VIN swap...which was illegal ( even then) .. but the car had never been registered so it didn't create a ghost car in the records.

As for a "new" Sunbeam body... The what if person was aware of the do as discussion of this year's ago... Big difference between a brand new repro body and a straight car with years of history with a different ID and as a different model.

Like e-types, MGB etc...if you can buy a new body and switch VIN it would add value to a normal tiger or alpine .. a no accident.. no rust fresh body.. and you can bet the seller wouldnt hide the change.

If it was a car with significant history.. rally car.. racer... Owned by a famous person etc... it would likely devale.. as the value was in that bodies unique history.

Making a V8 sunbeam alpine out of a rusted Tiger is fine....just don't swap the VIN.... The only reason to vin swap... Is to hide what's been done.

Whatever you think happened back in the day. There wasn't a lot of conformity to the rules back in the 60's and even into the 70's.

 

[Austin Healer]

From the UK MOT (red is my edit):

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

So unless a replacement body is NEW, the original registration number is not to be transferred to the rebodied vehicle. I do not know when this became law. And there may be some appeal buried in the MOT regulations. And, no, I am not a lawyer, just a reader.

of course, the shell he used is most definitely NOT the same specification as it should have a series 4 type shell and the car was "rebuilt" around a series 5 shell... so 2 couple of fails!

What ever you think happened back in the day.

Well, I suppose this is the difference between an Alpine and a Tiger... But the difference in value between a restored Alpine and a REAL Tiger is somewhere between $60-100K. Every time some yahoo creates a fake Tiger it affects the value of a real one.

I have nothing against Alpines... They were a much better built car that either an MGB or a Spitfire. Rootes was a weird outlier in that they were more focused on fit and finish than the larger British manufacturers. The thing that killed the Alpine was the fact that they were underpowered when compared to the larger makes. Of course, and then Chrysler's indifference... The Tiger solved that problem, but the result was a cost that exceeded the Big Healey and came way too close to the Jaguar E-type.

Now, the fact that Chrysler was intent on killing the Tiger due to its Ford power plant and the relative lack of parts availability due to its small production volume, makes restoration difficult. As a result, a lot of Alpines are sacrificed to restore Tigers... It's inevitable. it's simple economics...

BUT... to wholesale use an entire Alpine shell to "rebody" a Tiger is unethical and a fraud.

I recently had a discussion regarding the differences between a factory Austin Healey 100M (Lemans) and a regular Austin Healey 100 (100/4). Monetarily, the difference is about $150K or more. Like Sunbeam Tigers, there are no hidden chassis stampings.. I have been active with the Healey concours group since 1989.. We know the differences, and like the TAC guys, we keep them close to the vest, so we can weed out the fakes...

I don't just have a "hard on" for people that fake Tigers... I have just a much contempt for those that would fake an AH100M (640 made) or an AH 3000 MK2 2 seat tricarb (355 made and I OWN ONE... my 2nd), or a Jaguar XK150S ...

 

[65beam]

of course, the shell he used is most definitely NOT the same specification as it should have a series 4 type shell and the car was "rebuilt" around a series 5 shell... so 2 couple of fails!

Well, I suppose this is the difference between an Alpine and a Tiger... But the difference in value between a restored Alpine and a REAL Tiger is somewhere between $60-100K. Every time some yahoo creates a fake Tiger it affects the value of a real one.

I have nothing against Alpines... They were a much better built car that either an MGB or a Spitfire. Rootes was a weird outlier in that they were more focused on fit and finish than the larger British manufacturers. The thing that killed the Alpine was the fact that they were underpowered when compared to the larger makes. Of course, and then Chrysler's indifference... The Tiger solved that problem, but the result was a cost that exceeded the Big Healey and came way too close to the Jaguar E-type.

Now, the fact that Chrysler was intent on killing the Tiger due to its Ford power plant and the relative lack of parts availability due to its small production volume, makes restoration difficult. As a result, a lot of Alpines are sacrificed to restore Tigers... It's inevitable. it's simple economics...

BUT... to wholesale use an entire Alpine shell to "rebody" a Tiger is unethical and a fraud.

I recently had a discussion regarding the differences between a factory Austin Healey 100M (Lemans) and a regular Austin Healey 100 (100/4). Monetarily, the difference is about $150K or more. Like Sunbeam Tigers, there are no hidden chassis stampings.. I have been active with the Healey concours group since 1989.. We know the differences, and like the TAC guys, we keep them close to the vest, so we can weed out the fakes...

I don't just have a "hard on" for people that fake Tigers... I have just a much contempt for those that would fake an AH100M (640 made) or an AH 3000 MK2 2 seat tricarb (355 made and I OWN ONE... my 2nd), or a Jaguar XK150S ...

There was a 100M in Huntington, W.Va. back in the early 70's and it was sold to a car nut that turned it into a gasser for drag racing. We raced him a few times at the local strip. The last time I saw it was at the car show in the Huntington Civic Center probably in the mid 80's. No one knows what ever happened to it.