Engine drop plan - and progress

[Carbuilder]

I'm planning to drop the engine/tranny soon to tone down the engine as a winter project. Currently a 347ci with 426HP, high compression (around 10.9:1), high idle, very heavy clutch, and a bit of a lumpy idle. Perfect for some people that want a hotrod but not what I want. The car is great other than that, so I want to tone it down a bit. The plan right now is to install lower compression pistons and a very mild cam (16cc pistons as opposed to the 5cc ones in it now should put it at about 9.5:1).

This is a well modified car with a "Hokanson" front suspension. I've had a good look at it and this seems to be the plan to remove the engine/tranny. I have a 4-post lift and am going to get a heavy duty tranny jack to support the engine/tranny for removal.

The transmission is a T5 that ends about where the line is drawn, so would have to come forward about 9" before it can be dropped. But looks like the engine can be lowered down at the front and maybe go forward/down to not have to pull everything straight forward 9", if that makes sense. But I'm going to remove the rad to get at the electric fan, so with that and the front pulleys removed it can come forward quite a bit.



Support the car on jack stands here:



This is the front suspension. Looks like 1 brake line to undo and the steering joint:



2 bolts on each side to remove the suspension unit:



The plan is to remove the wheels and have the car high enough on the jack stands to remove the suspension unit, supported on the tranny jack, lower it a bit, swing it 90 degrees, lower it and out.

Looks like there are 3 bolts in each engine mount attaching it to the frame. The headers are wrapping around the mount, but looks like the engine/header/mount can all be dropped down. The header may have to be loosened from the engine, but looks like almost/maybe enough clearance to drop it down just clear of the frame.


There will be some removal from the top (alternator, front pulleys, anything else that looks like it is in the way).

So that is the plan. See anything I am missing?

Rick

 

[HolyCat]

Rick,

Maybe I missed it in your post, but I would suggest removing the water pump as well. That will give you a few more inches of clearance.

Good luck with your project!
David

 

[spmdr]

Rick, My $.02

I would change just the cam first.

Then I would invest in some type of programmable ignition system.

These days, there are countless engines running pump gas with more

compression than you have.

I would change the cam first with the engine in the car.

Then you could test it before changing the clutch/removing the engine.


As far as removing the engine/trans, plan to be able to tilt/ lift the

trans higher than the engine to get the trans out and back into the

tunnel/X frame.

I use a scissors jack under the trans.

But you need a cart long enough for the jack.

DW

 

[Austin Healer]

the easiest way to remove the engine and gearbox is to lift the front end on jack stands and remove the front suspension. then remove radiator, generator (or alternator) and brackets, remove cooling fan and fan pulley. If the car has headers you'll need to remove the RH header. Remove the carb and fit an intake manifold lifting plate, support the engine and gearbox with a "cherry picker" remove the motor mounts, transmission crossmember, shifter and driveline. Drain the gearbox. the engine can now be pulled forward slightly and dropped out under the car. I place a creeper under the engine and just lower the engine/transmission assy on the creeper and roll it out from under the car. My best time for the entire job was just less than an hour with nobody else helping.

you don't even need to remove the hood, which is nice and fitting a hood by yourself is a time consuming process

as the manuals say, installation is the reverse process!

 

[Carbuilder]

I will remove the water pump if that is needed. Will have to come off anyways, so just a matter of when it comes off.

Rad will come out not only for engine removal clearance, but because I want to have a good look at the electric fan. The article on cooling suggests/shows that the older style fan with straight blades is more effective than the curved blade design and I think that is what I have. So I may change it. Also...........I'm considering adding A/C so will have to see where the condenser will go. There is also some weeping from the tranny bell housing; not quite a drip yet, but might as well address it now.

As for just changing the cam, I did think of that. I know engines run more compression than what I have, but they also run like my engine does and I don't like that. A friend of mine that knows more about serious engine building than most people built one with 10.2:1 compression (for street use but also for bracket racing) said even that was pushing it these days. I know modern engines get away with much higher compression than that, but much newer technology. I want to err on the side of too mild in doing this work. Though a 347 "too mild" can't really happen in a fairly light car.

I'm in no hurry to get this work done, so I don't need to try and break any records. If I run into a snag I can change my plan. Or should I say when I run into a snag. Do jobs like this ever go according to plan?

I appreciate all the input.

Rick

 

[Austin Healer]

I've never had to remove a water pump to get the engine out of a car. I had a client with a 347 in his Tiger MK2. Crank triggered ignition, individual fuel injectors.. Motec controlled. 475HP at the flywheel... The car was pretty much undriveable. I installed an F4B intake and 600CFM Holley, plopped a normal dizzy in it. Didn't go any further than that. Kept the cam and existing pistons. I figure I took 100 HP out of the engine. The result was a car with 350, or so, flywheel HP and a much nicer driving experience. Since then I have installed a Holley FiTech system in place of the normal carb. with little change in drivability.

 

[sandy]

If you do pull the water pump, gives you a bit extra room to work with, and less stuff to hit I got a wood furniture moving cart (a larger flat one) and swapped the wheels with some really small urethane ones from Amazon. I got everything out of the way and the picker to lift the motor enough to bolt on a pair of 'legs' for storing the engine (Might be called Motofeet), but basically they are legs to bolt to the engines motor mounts. Got both on, dropped the package on the wood cart and pulled it out the bottom. Helping hands and eyes are a good thing. Another thing that was super helpful was a MAC Pivot Engine tilter, bolts up to the carb flang if you have a 4bbl, and makes getting angles needed really easy.

If you are in the Los Angeles area you are welcome to use what I have.

Sandy

 

[Carbuilder]

I don't want this to be a debate on the best way to modify my engine to tone it down....but...

If an engine is properly tuned, with timing, before and after changing the ignition system there should be no difference in power. And traditionally carburetors make more power than port fuel injection due to the atomized fuel cooling the intake runners. Now a 600 CFM carb is a little small for an engine that size, but unless you want to rev it past 6,000 RPM, the size isn't too bad. So I can't see how that would drop the power so dramatically unless there is something else going on.

As for the engine drop, I've done it from above with a cradle below in a Fiero; swapping a V8 in. I made things easier by mounting a 12V winch on the cherry picker so I could control it while guiding it onto the cradle from below.



I hadn't seen a carb lifting adaptor with tilting like you show Sandy. That's pretty cool. I'm still debating with myself about using the cherry picker and working sort of above and below, or getting the tranny jack to work mainly from below. I do have a set of those engine support legs, but for a SBC. Since my brother is working on a SBC now, with my engine stand, I'll take my stand back and give him those mounts.

I appreciate the offer to see your setup Sandy, but it would be a bit of a drive...........3,000 miles give or take.

Rick

 

[pfreen]

In my opinion, low end torque is what makes a car drivable. The two main contributing factors is the camshaft profile and the carb cfm. I did a lot of modeling on my 260 engine to look at what cam and carb are best, without the bottom end being uprated to run a higher rpm.
I chose the Summit 1799 cam because it gave good low end torque and a max of 235 hp at 5400 rpm. The peak torque is around 269 ft-lb at 3400 rpm. The torque curve is very flat around this rpm. The carb is the 465 cfm holley with an Edelbrock f4b manifold.

It's not the most hp you can get, but it is very drivable.

 

[sandy]

Rick, yes too far away 😀

If anyone needs to use what I have feel free to holler, happy to help.

Sandy

 

[Carbuilder]

Giving this more thought. Sandy, I suppose the way to use the cherry picker (without removing the hood) is to go in from the side. Maybe that is the way to go. I was thinking that if I use a tranny jack from below, it only lowers the engine to a point about maybe 40" from the ground (to engine centreline). So how to get it from there to the point where I can remove the tranny to put the engine on a stand....have to use something like the cherry picker. And if I'm setting that up, might as well use it to drop the engine instead of a tranny jack. I have the tilting thing that attaches to the cherry picker chain, but it uses chains at the front and rear of the engine to lift. The gizmo you show that goes on the intake manifold looks good. I've seen them before but always worried about pulling an engine with something screwed into an aluminum manifold.

Rick

 

[sandy]

Giving this more thought. Sandy, I suppose the way to use the cherry picker (without removing the hood) is to go in from tide. Maybe that is the way to go. I was thinking that if I use a tranny jack from below, it only lowers the engine to a point about maybe 40" from the ground (to engine centreline). So how to get it from there to the point where I can remove the tranny to put the engine on a stand....have to use something like the cherry picker. And if I'm setting that up, might as well use it to drop the engine instead of a tranny jack. I have the tilting thing that attaches to the cherry picker chain, but it uses chains at the front and rear of the engine to lift. The gizmo you show that goes on the intake manifold looks good. I've seen them before but always worried about pulling an engine with something screwed into an aluminum manifold.

Rick

Pull the hood, just mark its position with tape or pencil, one less thing to accidentally damage 🤔

Also you could likely lift a 1000lbs+ with 4 bolts into the manifold, even if aluminum. Lots of interweb discussion and I remember someone did the math with 5/16" bolts into cast aluminum and was a crazy high number, way more then you would think. Use good hardware and good to go.

I have a chain style pivot but the carb thingie was simpler, chains never in the way. You can used a small drill and socket to move it quickly. (READ AS TOO LAZY TO RATCHET)

Lots of ways to skin the Cat so to speak...

 

[DD (CA)]

One other hood (bonnet) removal and replace hack... drill small pilot holes through the hinge into the bonnet. Large enough diameter for the smallest diameter pin/nail/etc you might have around. One for each hinge. Insert pin. Remove fasteners. Remove hood. One-ish person job to hold hood back up and slide onto pins for realignment. Replace fasteners. Fill holes or dont. Paint drop and no one will know (except folks looking now. Shucks...)

Best day the daughter had "working on the car" with me was drilling holes into it.



DD

 

[Carbuilder]

Best day the daughter had "working on the car" with me was drilling holes into it.



DD

Nice...teach them young that drilling holes in cars is OK and fun!

I did read about drilling holes in hinges to help re-align it at assembly. I just marked the outline of it on the hood with a sharpie. I did get help removing it.....45 lbs!

A little progress on it after that; overflow tank, rad, electric fan, alternator removed. Nice to work on a car that has been recently restored; nothing dirty/rusty/greasy.



Rick

 

[sandy]

Great stuff!!

 

[Carbuilder]

Great stuff!!

I bought one of the engine removing gizmos you showed. From the reviews I read it sounds like the way to go.

 

[Carbuilder]

Coming along well. Wanted it high enough to remove the suspension cradle (which is wider than the space between the ramps of the lift). So need to drop it down, turn it 90 degrees, then drop it down again. At that point I may lower the front of the car down a little. That's the plan anyways.

 

[Carbuilder]

Progressing well. The suspension cradle is out and everything is detached/removed for the engine/tranny to come out. Not sure about the headers though. They are still on and may (or may not) clear the frame. Looks like if I can move the engine down just a bit then forward, things will clear. I'll see.

The only snag with removing the Hokanson suspension cradle was that is was a little narrower than the frame and was sort of trapped in by it. You can see that the upper control arm pivot is above and "inside" the frame;



The frame tapers to the rear, so moving the cradle rearwards would help, but the steering rack was up against the oil pan. I jiggled things around a bit and it was close but wouldn't come out. So I raised the car, leaving the suspension cradle resting on the lift to see what I could do, and it dropped out. Maybe it was moving it completely to one side released the other side. Not sure, but I'll have to do the reverse to get it back in.

Anyways, things are ready for the engine out:

 

[sandy]

I think I ground those areas flat so I could slide the hokenson bits up easier. Wasn't a big deal on my car, buy could see others not wanting to grind on a nice Tiger 😀

 

[Carbuilder]

I may trim those interfering areas of the frame flange down a bit.

A question for you. I haven't dropped the engine yet, but see the way I installed the engine lift? In your picture it is the other way around. I assumed the way I put it would allow me to lower the tranny end of things, but also allow it to hang level. So I put the pivot/hanging pin at the rear. Does it matter which way I install it?