Holley 650 Ultra HP

[Duke Mk1a]

I am not messing around with cheap Ebay carbs that I rebuild anymore. I saw this new Holley at the PRI trade show in December.

Install started.....then stopped. Have to order some fuel fittings as this Holley has fittings like no other Holley.....figures.

A preview -

Some interesting findings.

600 CFM on left, 650 CFM middle, 700 CFM on right.

Note the size of the fuel bowels on the 650 HP (20% more fuel). Yes, still has firewall clearance.

600 bores are 39mm, 650 Ultra HP are 43 mm

650 Ultra HP and 700 CFM are the same, 43mm. Note how the throttle plates do not have screws protruding through them on the HP carb.

Just look at the comparison of the 650 HP race carb to the 700 street carb with choke. Look at all that stuff in the way of air flow in the 700. I bet there are lots more ponies with the HP and dare I say.........1/4 in the mid 11s.

The Ultra HP is notably lighter too.

 

[cobrakidz]

Good looking carb.......

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Well, snow on the ground and 18 degrees outside prevent a road test.

Did get it installed, warmed up and idling like a dream. The idle is a little tricky with a A/F adjustment screw for each barrel, Idle control valve (new feature on this carb) and throttle plate adjustment for the primaries and secondaries.

Looks damn nice too.

Oh, and had the joy of finally using my in/lb torque wrench. Carb bolts are tightened to 60 in/lbs.

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Road Test -

WOW!....................its NUTS I tell ya...............frikin NUTS!

From idle to full throttle is flawless. No hesitation or flat spots. It is dry and in the high 30's and tires are cold but damn, anything over 1/4 throttle in 1st and they spin....any secondaries in second and they spin. Can be running 30 mph and spin them. Can get full into the throttle in third and there is still some spin. Sounds different too.

Ultra HP is worth every penny.

 

[cobrakidz]

Come on, don't be shy---how do you like it???

 

[66TigerMK1A]

Hey Duke
Sounds like you're having way too much fun with that thing!!

Was it that good right outa the box? Or was it custom jetted for your motor?

I bought a new 600 'Quick Fuel' custom jetted for my setup last fall but have yet to install it. They were concerned that I wouldn't have enough air OR fuel flow so I've been correcting that first. They give me tech support and even if it ends up on another motor will figure out new jetting etc. for it.
They also pretty much garanteed me another 30 hp over my 650 dp Holley (4777) and waay better throttle response. Read- Autocross
I guess I'll know in a couple months.
Aren't ya glad ol George positioned that SBF so that those. big D.P. carbs drop in there? I got at least 1/8" to spare...Lol


Jim. - sitting in Mexico, drinking Tequila, waiting for Spring

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Was it that good right outa the box? Or was it custom jetted for your motor?

Jim. - sitting in Mexico, drinking Tequila, waiting for Spring

Yes, right out of the box. No custom jetting. It has 70 jets in all four corners. The throttle response is instantaneous and brutal. 1st gear is spinn-vill. Had my son in the car the other day and gave him a demo of WOT in 2nd while going 30 mph........tires started smoking and car started to turn sideways. Easily corrected and then completed our drive to his first drivers lesson for driver education.

I then explained how my 30 years of driving allowed me to control the car and to not put it into the curb. Actually, kinda surprised me too

Will be putting a AEM wide band O2 sensor on it in the spring and also doing some dyno tuning to dial it in. I tell you, it is very close out of the box.

It also has 20% larger fuel bowels that the Quick Fuel and the carb is 28% lighter.

You have fun in Mexico......I am jealous.

 

[Orig65Tiger]

Duke, great information. I'm trying to learn what combinations of high rise manifolds and double pumper carbs will clear a stock, early Tiger, firewall. You comment that you have 1/8"+ clearance at the firewall.

Great pictures, but I can't tell:
1.) what brand/model of manifold are you running?
2.) Is the contour of your firewall directly behind the secondary fuel bowl modified?
3.) Is your motor set in a pure “factory” stance on the motor mounts, i.e. not pulled forward?

Thank you--Jim

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Hey Jim,

1 - It is a Weiand 7515 X–CELerator http://www.holley.com/7515.asp Note: I had 1/4 - 1/2" taken off of the top to allow for the Holley heat shield and spacer.
2 - A PO cut the firewall at the back of the carb location. I bet a Le Mans carb was on the 260 at one time. What you see is a cover plate for the hole.
3 - Motor is in factory location except for 1/8" spacers between engine mount and body to raise the engine for Derale 15" fan clearance to the rack.

Even without my modified firewall, I believe the carb will clear.

Better pics -

Ohhh yea, the manifold has more mods. I had to do a lot of port matching to the AFR 185 heads.

 

[66TigerMK1A]

. You comment that you have 1/8"+ clearance at the firewall.

Great pictures, but I can't tell:
1.) what brand/model of manifold are you running?
2.) Is the contour of your firewall directly behind the secondary fuel bowl modified?
3.) Is your motor set in a pure “factory” stance on the motor mounts, i.e. not pulled forward?

Thank you--Jim

Hi Jim

I was the guy saying that I have 1/8" clearance from the back of my Holley 650 double pump to the unmodified firewall...

The car came to me with that carb mounted on a 289 HIPO with an Edelbrock Performer manifold and no carb spacer. There was 1/8" gap behind the fuel bowl and lots of hood clearance with stock hood.
I then installed a .030 over 302 H.O. motor and used an Edelbrock RPM Air Gap which I'm going to assume is the same height as the Performer RPM that is in the info below. I still ran the 650 with no spacer. I have the new motor mounts oriented correctly with no shims and I still have the 1/8" clearance at the back. Using a stock air cleaner with the stock 1 1/2" air filter I have 3/8" hood clearance at closest point.
Here's some manifold info that I 'stole' from the Tigers United site... only pertaining to height, though...

First, definitions of measurements:
To ensure adequate hood clearance, Edelbrock provides manifold heights for all their products, but sometimes leave them out of the catalog by mistake. These dimensions are made with the manifold sitting on a flat level surface. A straight edge is laid across the carburetor pad mounting flange, and the vertical height from the flat surface to the long straight edge are made at the front center of the manifold. This height measurement is called "A".

A similar measurement is made at the rear center of the manifold. This measurement is "B".

The carburetor pad height "CH" is simply A + B divided by 2.

Please note that these statements are valid under two conditions. First, the length of the manifolds being compared is the same. Since they all fit the same sealing surface on the same engine, this is true. The second criteria is that the carburetor mounting flange is located in the same position on all compared models. This statement has been a subject of differing opinions on this list.
According to Edelbrock, The carburetor pad on the Performer 289/302 low rise, the Performer RPM, the F4B, and all other's for this block are not only the same, but are centered in the middle of the block, and directly over the exhaust cross-over in the manifold. This provides even heat under the carburetor, and is in a fixed location on the engine. While certain carburetors may be too long to clear the firewall, at the same "CH", that effect will exist on all manifolds near the same height. The exception, of course, is the F-28 Dual Quad, with TWO four barrel carbs, but they are symmetrically spaced.

Hear are the Edelbrock dimensions:

F4B (2500-7000 rpm design)
A = 4.563 inches
B = 5.313 inches
CH = 4.938 inches

Performer 289/302 (idle-5500 rpm design)
A = 3.50 inches
B = 4.75 inches
CH = 4.125 inches
(This is a 'low rise' manifold, similar to the stock Ford dimensions.)

Performer RPM (1500-6500 rpm design)
A = 4.30 inches
B = 5.50 inches
CH = 4.90 inches

As can be seen, the RPM is 0.038 inches lower than the F4B, giving more hood clearance, although the F4B will fit if you don't use a carburetor higher than the Holley or Edelbrock. Carburetor choice, gasket thickness, thermal barrier spacers and needs for PCV tube plates alter the total height, but would add the same amount to any.


Jim
B392000446

 

[chirodoc]

Holley 650 ultra

I don't want to throw cold water on your new carb, but an Edelbrock (aka: Carter AFB) carburator would not present firewall clearance problems. My Edelbrock Torquer manifold and a double pumper would not clear the firewall without modification to the firewall. My Carter AFB works fine. Changing jets or metering rods does not entail removing the carburator. I idles nice, doesn't leak or blow power valves. Powerblock TV this weekend dynoed a Ford Performance Parts stroker crate engine with Edelbrock E heads, at 440 hp and 418 lbs of torque.
The performance is there, no longer can it be called a Jimmy Carter.

 

[66TigerMK1A]

The performance is there, no longer can it be called a Jimmy Carter.

LOLOL !! Never heard that term up in these parts...

Ya, the Edelbrock has a ton of room at the firewall... I'll have to admit why I didn't provide a pic of the clearance on my car because last summer my Holley 650 went south and as an interim I put on an Edelbrock that I just happened to have... It's still on there as I haven't gotten around to installing the new Quick Fuel 600 yet ! BTW, Edelbrock has worked fine but maybe just a little short when you stomp on it... but then again it's only a 500 CFM

Jim
B382000446

 

[Duke Mk1a]

I don't want to throw cold water on your new carb, but an Edelbrock (aka: Carter AFB) carburator would not present firewall clearance problems.

I don't think the Ultra HPs will either. Go the Holley website (http://www.holley.com/0-80802HB.asp) to see all of the racing specific improvements that have made to the Ultra HP line. I'd put this Holley up against any Quick Fuel, Demon or Carter. Would love to have a example of all and do a dyno shoot out. I know for sure this carb is lighter than all of them. ~5 lbs. lighter than the non Ultra HP Holley's.

 

[Orig65Tiger]

Jim,

Very helpful information because your installation is a version of what I have planned. I plan to install a Ford B303 crate motor and Performer RPM Air Gap manifold. I currently run the stock 260 with a Ford cast iron 4 bbl intake and Holley 1850 carb. I could install the 1850 on the new setup but I want to install a Holley 4776 600 cfm double pumper that I have.

I confirmed that the RPM Air Gap height measurements are the same as those your show for the Performer RPM.

I think you are telling me two good things--to confirm:

1) The Performer RPM Air Gap manifold, Holley double pumper without a spacer, and stock Tiger air cleaner should clear the stock hood. And....

2) The double pumper installed without a spacer should clear the stock firewall.

Have I understood correctly? Thanks again,

Jim

 

[chirodoc]

HOLLEY 650 ULTRA HP

JIM H:
I would think twice about installing a Ford Performance Parts crate motor. The extra the cost $$$ of a Quicktime bellhousing, a 50 oz imbalance flywheel $$$, a centerforce clutch $$$, a 50 oz 3 bolt crankshaft damper $$$, a normal rotation waterpump $$$, and custom built headers if the heads are the raised port heads $$$. An STOA article a couple of years back chronicled the cost and steps necessary to install the $ 3500 crate motor. I can't remember the month and the date of the article, but you might check with Tom Hall since they advertise that they do these swaps. I would think that you would be better off getting a 5 bolt block crate motor from Coast High Performance/Probe Industries with Edelbrock heads,or any other crate motor builders there in California. While you are bulding from scratch, adding a 3.25 in. stroker crank for 331cu in motor at about 400 hp for not much expense over a 302 short block crate engine.

 

[Duke Mk1a]

See this link for installing a 1991 347 stroker - http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1255824721370.2034409.1402147496&type=3&l=33c2567b45

 

[66TigerMK1A]

Jim,



I confirmed that the RPM Air Gap height measurements are the same as those your show for the Performer RPM.

I think you are telling me two good things--to confirm:

1) The Performer RPM Air Gap manifold, Holley double pumper without a spacer, and stock Tiger air cleaner should clear the stock hood. And....

2) The double pumper installed without a spacer should clear the stock firewall.

Have I understood correctly? Thanks again,

Jim

Yes, it should clear the stock hood with 3/8" to spare...

You inspired me to dust off the Tiger and go for a spin in sunny but 2° C weather and when I got back, I took the Edelbrock carb off and dropped both the 4777 DP Holley and Quick fuel on so I could take some pics...

Well... my 1/8" clearance seems to have shrunk a bit lol! I'd say it's more like 1/16" now... I know it was more last year...

So... Yes it clears... but it's so close... I would pry the motor forward to fudge any slack in the motor mounts if I was you, just to make sure!!
The good news is that (especially with 'safety' bolts in the mounts ) there is very little movement between the motor and the car !


Jim
B382000446

 

[66TigerMK1A]

Jim H ...

I'll give you my thoughts on 'new' motors... First of all, as cool as '347' sounds,I don't really see the point for 'most' Tigers. We're not dealing with a 3500 lb. car here ...don't need the torque! Having said that, I see that you can now get a 'big bore' 347 using a 3.125 crank and a Dart block but it's $$$ .

I bought my 306 long block a few years ago from Fantasy Engines in Rhode Island ( now Creb Engineering ) for $2,999 delivered to the West Coast . It was based on a 302 H.O and came with a brand new 28 oz. imbalance crank, front sump, early front cover and alum. TFS heads. It makes about 400 hp and will cook the 245's off the car at will... I still running the original ( gulp) flywheel
I think that any crate motor from Ford would have too many things to change out and I'm sure you could have something similar to mine built for cheaper albeit with a 'used' block.
You could also source a 5 bolt block and do something with that to save the cost of a new bell... but I have a feeling that somehow, the newer blocks have less heat problems... when I swapped in my new motor, it replaced a ( '66 vintage ) 6 bolt 289 HIPO and with no change of any kind to the cooling system, my car began to run 10° cooler in all situations than the old motor...this with easily another 100 hp...

Jim
B382000446

 

[Duke Mk1a]

First of all, as cool as '347' sounds,I don't really see the point for 'most' Tigers.

I see and live the point every time I get the ear to ear grin under full throttle. 99% of the other cars on the road get the point if they want to get froggy with me. Almost all other cars that line up with me at the drag strip get the point too.

Too much HP is almost enough.

Here is what a 347 sounds like -
http://youtu.be/z4Ejcr7-byU
http://youtu.be/5uW8p-7Pkr8

 

[66TigerMK1A]

Too much HP is almost enough.

LOLOL I KNEW that was coming... Sorry, Duke !!

That's why I said 'most' ... I think your car is extremely cool!!!

Jim
B382000446