MSD Ready To Run distributor lies!

cadreamn67

Platinum Forum Member
Messages
608
Duke,

Many thanks for posting all that info. I had stumbled onto the ported, manifold vacuum port part a couple of years ago, but this is the most complete, helpful, easily understood explanation of all the factors I have ever seen.

Not withstanding all the other reasons for the vacuum advance circuit, the positive benefits of the manifold vacuum hookup in helping to run cooler at idle is especially important to us Tiger owners.:D

Gene
 

Tiger tamer

Gold forum user
Messages
318
I dont know if the vacuum advance canisters that fords use are the same as gm cans, but here is a list of different cans with different starting points and different degrees of advance. There is also a good explination of timing advance.
http://www.nastyz28.com/~ericf/tech/vacadvance.pdf

The way Duke has stoped the dizzy from to much advance is also the way people use the stop GM HEI dizzies from gaining to much vaccum advance.
 

wag123

Gold forum user
Messages
130
I can absolutely confirm that the engine will heat-up at idle using ported vacuum to control the timing. I moved it to manifold vacuum and, EUREKA, the car will idle all day long without heating up. I have had a problem with this for over 20 years! Thanks again Duke.
 

ramseyt

Gold forum user
CAT Member
Messages
115
Thanks Duke for posting this article.

Thanks Rick..........Ooops, dropped this here:


"At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts."

:)Thanks Duke for posting this article on ignition timing. The reading has really brought the subject to a better light for me, and some of my friends. It prompted me to buy a vacuum advance with an adjustable can so I could choose the amount of advance, (12°), and the Hg level, (11), at which to pull that advance. I have an M*D Pro-Billet #8352 dizzy that uses the same advance can as the late 60’s GM single point units. I understand that most Billet dizzys use that same can. I bought the #110-31034 from JEGS. I now have static timing set @ 10°, Vacuum @ 12° max, and mechanical @ 28° @ 3,200 rpm. With the additional 12° at idle, I had to back the throttle stop screw completely off to get the idle back down to 800 rpm. The engine now runs cooler @ idle, and would just have to be using less fuel. I hung my vacuum gauge inside the car so I could see when I’m @ 11 Hg or above while driving. It’s amazing how effortless the car moves @ cruising speed with the vacuum @ full advance now. I haven’t been on a trip yet to check the mpg but I’m very optimistic.
 

trevor91773

Bronze forum user
CAT Member
Messages
15
Although it has been many years since I installed my MSD distributor, I believe I found the similar issues with timing advance. It would idle fine but as soon as the rpm's climbed the engine began running like a bag of crap. A quick check with a timing gun showed some pretty stout timing advance. I think I purchased a stronger spring that controlled the mechanical advance. Everything ran fine after that. No messing with the vacuum advance. Engine spec's: 289 (appears to be original, but aftermarket piston installed by previous owner) added comp 280H cam, trick flow heads, weiand stealth intake, 700cfm holley double pumper ( jetted down). I've spun it well above 7000rpm without timing issues.
 

Duke Mk1a

Gold forum user
Messages
1,673
WOW guys, thanks. I am very happy that many (other than Moondawg) have a better and cooler running Tiger from this thread.

I also ordered one of those adjustable cans, thanks!
 
Last edited:

Tiger tamer

Gold forum user
Messages
318
I posted the info Duke posted here on a Pontiac forum I have been a member of for many years. This is a responce from one member. He is a well respected Quadrajet builder, engine tuner. engine builder.



Any car that sees a lot of street driving should be using a vacuum advance. Adding some additional timing at light load/light throttle improves engine efficiency, allows for a leaner mixture, and consumes less fuel.

The factory carburetors used a very accurately located ported source to apply the advance on most carburetors. This provides full timing from the advance right off idle, but no additional timing at idle and coasting. They really did know what they were doing there, and if it cleans up emissions and got them thru emission testing there is a good reason for it.

For most set-ups here we used ported vacuum to apply the advance. Some will respond well to manifold vacuum, typically low compression engines with large cams in them, as they are not nearly as efficient at low speeds (dynamic compression low). Once you know how to tune these engines, choosing which source to apply the advance is an easier decision. Some very well thought out engines are not going to want, or need a lot of timing at idle speed. They will idle too fast, lost control with the idle mixtures screws, and often buck and kick in protest. Always test the port with a vacuum gauge, it should show nothing or very little at idle speed, and FULL manifold vacuum with the slightest movement of the throttle off idle. Rochester was very good at locating this port, so it does the same exact thing as using full manifold vacuum to the advance, except it won't apply the canister at idle and coasting.

For most well thought out engine combinations, they will want about 10-14 degrees initial timing, 20-22 from the mechanical advance, and 10-15 from the vacuum unit. The mechanical curve doesn't have to be "lighting" fast, and all in by 1500-2000rpm's. This ALWAYS creates tuning issues, as some of the curve comes in at idle speed as things "loosen" up, and makes idle tuning difficult, if not near impossible.

A slower mechanical curve all in by about 2800-3000rpm's has proven sufficient for most of these engines. Timing MUST be rock solid at idle speed, and not "creep" in below 1000rpm's, for easiest idle tuning and less rpm drop in and out of gear......Cliff




Seems engines of different builds require different set ups. I think the advise of using a vacuum gauge to check the vacuum at the port is good advice.
I thought I would copy and paste this info as it may be helpfull.
 

Miles

New forum user
Messages
2
Duke,
Did you drill and tap a hole for the machine screw or is that one of the holes for the advance lock-out? Did you start with a longer metal tab and keep shortening it until you got the 10 degrees or was it just a correct guess?
I also bought a ready to run but am getting 21 degrees vacuum advance with only 10 pounds vacuum. The rev limiter doesn't work and I had to spend $125 for a composite distributor gear. I wish I'd left my old distributor on but I'm into this one for too much.
Thanks,
Miles.
Oh yeah, I called MSD and they told me an adjustable vacuum can for a GM points style distributor will fit. When I asked him why they didn't just make theirs to stop at ten as advertised he didn't have an answer.
 

Duke Mk1a

Gold forum user
Messages
1,673
I used a screw that was already there. I also had a correct guess of the length of the tab.

I have the adjustable pot now, just need to install it.

I was able to run with the gear that came on the distro with my roller cam. For the rev limiter to work at 6500, it is set close to 7000 on the tach. I would try to set it again, remember to set it at 1/2 desired rpm.
 

Miles

New forum user
Messages
2
Thank you,
Forgive me for stating I had 10 pounds of vacuum instead of 10 in.Hg.

I didn't notice that someone already mentioned the adjustable vacuum can, I think it was 66 Tiger? My first day here and I'm not used to the titles and signatures yet. What is the part number of the one you got? Maybe after you get it in you can tell us if it adjusts the amount of advance or the rate of advance.

MSD told me the gear is melonized [don't know what that is] and to go ahead and use it. But I talked to a guy who also has a billet steel cam and used the gear that came with the MSD distributor, it ate the cam gear, he had to pull the engine and tear it down to clean out all the metal. That was awhile ago and the gear may be different now but I'd just as soon not take the chance, I have a lot of BAD luck.

MSD literature states the vacuum advance will advance the timing 10 deg with 15 pounds vacuum. That's just over 30 in.Hg, my 10 in.Hg shouldn't get much but it's 21 degrees. Maybe they're talking distributor degrees not crank degrees but all their other numbers relate to crank degrees.

I'll try the limiter again. MSD guy told me to try just touching ground for a split second and if that doesn't work try a little longer each time until it does. I'm doing it at 3250 for a 6500 limit.

Interesting, all the opinions of ported and manifold vacuum advance. I use the manifold for vacuum advance. My engine runs smoother and cooler than when I have it on the stepped port. I can also move out the idle speed screw and keep the carb in the idle circuit and out of the transition circuit. The exhaust doesn't stink as it did when I used the ported source. Other engines could be different though.

Miles
 

wag123

Gold forum user
Messages
130
BTW Duke, I ran across this little jewel of additional information while I was doing my research. This is yet another reason to run manifold vacuum to the distributor advance.
Vacuum advance can also be used to help engines get rid of "run-on" or "Dieseling" problems when you shut the engine off. You can do this by hooking it up to a manifold vacuum source to pull more advance when the engine is idling. For those of you that can follow along with that concept, the reason for doing this is to make that extra timing being pulled at an idle to increase the idle RPM, which in turn allows you to back-off on the idle speed screw, which in turn closes-off the throttle plates so when you shut the engine off, it can not "mechanically" continue to pull fuel and air into the engine causing it to Diesel.
 

Duke Mk1a

Gold forum user
Messages
1,673
Just installed the Accel 31034 adjustable pot. A direct bolt in replacement for the MSD pot. Have 14 degrees of advance dialed in right now and the engine seems to really like it (tires don't).

Will play more with it in the future.
 

Duke Mk1a

Gold forum user
Messages
1,673
Old school old school ....whatcha gonna do?......whatcha gonna do when they come for you?.............
 
Top