Class Guidelines

[at the beach]

At a Tigers United, the participants pick the class in which they want to enter their cars.

To make this easier, a nationwide group of Tiger Clubs has gotten together over the last few months and come up with some guidelines to help owners find the class that best fits their Tigers. These are not written-in-stone commandments. They are simply guidelines. Owners may choose to ignore these guidelines, but most likely the judges won't.

The clubs involved in drafting these guideline include TE/AE, the STOA as well as CAT. A huge amount of effort, discussion, negotiation and debate went into constructing this matrix. Thanks to all involved!

See attached PDF.

bt,
at the beach

 

[spmdr]

Stock?

Back in 1981 I attended my first TU.

At that time I was surprised at what was in "Stock" class.

AND it continues today.

Considering the market definition of "Stock", maybe it's time to institute an ADDITIONAL Real STOCK class/Group.

Maybe; Original Stock, or Historical Stock, or ....OK, I'll say it to make a point, Stone Stock!

 

[michael-king]

Back in 1981 I attended my first TU.

At that time I was surprised at what was in "Stock" class.

AND it continues today.

Considering the market definition of "Stock", maybe it's time to institute an ADDITIONAL Real STOCK class/Group.

Maybe; Original Stock, or Historical Stock, or ....OK, I'll say it to make a point, Stone Stock!

"Factory stock" ... As they came off the line with only rootes official accessories for the models alpine/ tiger.

I guess issue stateside is the LAT options, but they are clearly defined in brochures.

You would need to exclude period "dealer" or "after market" accesories ie: amco parts, local radios and consoles, libre wheels, sanderon headers etc.. Some might be specially designed for the cars and even installed new, but they were not offical or sanctioned.

You could exempt radial tyres, fire extinguishers and seat belts ( even though there were rootes offered parts for those) on safety grounds.

Just a thought.

 

[Warren]

How'd they do it?

They started with a conference call with a bunch of guys from all of the clubs .
Then they moved their final discussions to the officers and directors. My personal opinion on it is the same as a couple other guys.

When I read it the first time I only had a couple of what the heck moments.
One of them was the new reproduction Tiger script manifold being allowed on a stock car. All you got to do is look at the thing read the ad copy on it's sales piece to know it's not like the original that was replaced by an F4b plus it looks substantially different than the correct low rise original Tiger scripted manifold.
My take is that there's still a tug of war on issues and this is a good effort but sometimes you just have to let go of the rope.

I had other comments but I gotta re read the PDF.

 

[cobrakidz]

I thought back in the 80's when I attended TU that you could have 1-2 non stock items and still be stock? ie.... 14" wheels, non original color to that car, etc...... Do cars get scored differently if an owner is using all original restored parts versus reproduction parts? I am sure this is a tough one to call and some will not be happy but as long as all clubs go by the same rules it should work.

 

[at the beach]

Dan, I started this thread to announce the availability of “Guidelines” which owners may use to help them select in which class they enter their car.

Dan, you are absolutely correct about the Stock class never having been a showroom type class devoid of Rootes and dealer options. I know others, nationwide, share your opinion that it would nice to be able to see the bare bones stock class you describe. I’m one of them.

However since the existing stock class is generally by far the smallest class at a Tigers United, splitting it further seems silly and definitely quite impractical. Your point about the marketplace moving in the direction of the ultra stock is perfectly valid. Maybe in future years the number of these cars will grow sufficiently to support having their own class.

As to what these Guidelines are – as I previously wrote, but some did not seem to notice, these are simply guides to help an owner figure out which class best fits his or her car.



They have absolutely NOTHING to do with what “is allowed” nor nothing to do about what is penalized or not penalized by the judges. (However the Guideline’s comments do warn owners in some cases where deductions are quite likely. But a warning is not “banning” nor “allowing”.) As I wrote in an earlier post, the owners pick the class they want to enter. If an owner enters a class where the car gets hammered in the judging more than in another class, that class selection still remains the owner’s decision.

Now the issues of whether the judges will ding messed up looking script plus the issue of the amount of the deduction taken for that messed up script will depend on the judges and their various judging sheets, together with typical mandatory deductions provided by the Concours chairperson for the event in question. These Guidelines do not affect the judging process. The judges score the cars presented to them. The owner decides which group of judges will look at the car (stock, personalized, modified).


bt

 

[1966 TGR]

The working group really grappled with what is "stock". Stock class has been getting smaller and in the end the group had to recognize the full spectrum of cars that members actually own across stock, personalized and modified. .

Regarding Michael King's comment, note that the general philosophy on stock class only allows for official LAT options as listed in period catalogs. The period aftermarket items you mention would be subject to deductions.

The guidelines are focused primarily on autocross performance and not intended to catalog all of the cosmetic differences such as on manifolds. That will be up to the judges, as always.

The main objectives:

1)The guidelines are agreed to by both STOA and C.A.T. Also, Tigers East/Alpines East was part of the discussion and is considering them for their use.

2)They are public and available well in advance of the event.

3) They are intended to remain as consistent over time as possible to avoid seemingly arbitrary changes and unpleasant surprises at an event.

 

[CLIFF_MK1]

I entered my Tiger in the Modified concours at TU in Sacramento this past June, my first experience with a Tiger event. These guidelines are very helpful. The judges did a great job. My only concern was in the process of judging the Modified class. I looked at the score sheets and they were the same for all three classes. There didn't seem to be a difference in how the Modified was judged from the Stock. There did not seem to be any consideration given to what was modified, why was it done, and what is the over all effect of the modifications.

For example, my modifications, and they are extensive, are all in the engine, running gear, etc. Things that are difficult to see with a car sitting in 2 inches of grass. A judge did get down and tried to peer under the car. But, the judges did not know about any of the modifications that they couldn't see, and asking these kind of questions was not part of the judging process. I was marked down for not having a jack or windshield washer bottle and some other things which didn't seem that important for a Modified car.

It would seem a logical next step would be to look at some of the judging process in the classes, and what might be important and/or different in one class than another. As someone who was new to this concours thing last June, these guidelines would have been very useful. Also, for a beginner, information about how to do a rally and autocross would be helpful. Cliff

 

[HolyCat]

Thoughts

Cliff - I believe that judging sheets are also being worked on and that there will be three separate sheets - one for each class. And I agree, we have had some pretty silly things that caused loss of points in the past, such as your example about the lack of a jack in a Modified car.

As to the document posted here, I think we all need to recognize how difficult this task was for the folks who. We finally have something to use when trying to decide which class to register our Tigers for Tigers United. I doff my cap to all those who worked hard on developing these.

Second, while these are guidelines to help a person decide in which class to register his or her Tiger, there are some strict rules about what items are or are not allowed in the autocross for certain classes. I do not read these as being guidelines, but as specific rules.

The problem we have had in the past is that most folks think about what should be allowed in terms of the Concours. As a result, there were a lot of things that probably should not have been allowed in a given class in the Autocross, but were allowed. And some folks probably still think primarily in terms of the Concours and not the Autocross when thinking about what should be allowed. Things that are not STOCK, unless they are completely hidden, will probably be picked up during the judging for the Concours and points taken off. But those same things might have given a car a competitive advantage in the Autocross over a car running a stock version. There is no “judging” or point deduction in Autocross, so the question is how do we come up with a system that is fair to the folks who are trying to keep their car as stock as possible and are not running "enhancements". And the same goes for the Personalized class – in the past some cars have run non-stock components in Personalized that now cannot be run unless the car is in the Modified class.

It seems to me that the relative number of cars in the three classes should not dictate that we need to loosen up or tighten up the requirements in a given class just so that we have an equal number of cars in each.

One of the areas where items other than original LAT items are allowed in Stock is the area of wheels. For the autocross, wheel widths in Stock are limited to 6” wide. However, the LAT-9 wheels and the LAT-70 wheels were a maximum of 5-1/2” wide. Yes, there were LAT-31 wheels (knock-off alloys) that were 6” and 7” wide, but those were made for racing only and, according to “The Book of Norm”, only 16 to 40 (depending on when Doane Spencer was talking) of them were known to be made. If anyone has a set of those and wants to run them in Stock, I would support them doing so. Unfortunately, one of our well-known Tiger suppliers reproduced the LAT-70 wheels in non-original 6” widths. (I think he offered even wider reproduction wheels, but I am not 100% sure.) I guess the guidelines allow the 6” wide wheels so the folks who bought these in the past can still feel that their wheels are Stock.

My comments should not be taken as a criticism of the fine, hard work that
the people did to develop the document. If feel they did an outstanding job. Thank you, one and all!

 

[67MKII]

This IS, HAS BEEN and probably ALWAYS will be a tough subject to tackle.

I applaud you guys/gals for putting some sort of guidelines together. Clearly, these are not hard and fast rules.

When we can get enough cars together, like corvette, porsche, mustang, and Ferrari concourse events - then it will be more appropriate to have more defined classification rules. But how many times can you split a Stock Class when there are only 5 cars showing? My guess is that when the Stock class hit 15 - 20 cars there will be a need to fine tune the classification rules.

If you get 50% of the people to agree with you - it was a job well done.
Good job on the "GUIDELINES"! Thanks for your time and effort.

John

 

[HolyCat]

Thanks for Proving My Point

This IS, HAS BEEN and probably ALWAYS will be a tough subject to tackle.

I applaud you guys/gals for putting some sort of guidelines together. Clearly, these are not hard and fast rules.

When we can get enough cars together, like corvette, porsche, mustang, and Ferrari concourse events - then it will be more appropriate to have more defined classification rules. But how many times can you split a Stock Class when there are only 5 cars showing? My guess is that when the Stock class hit 15 - 20 cars there will be a need to fine tune the classification rules.

If you get 50% of the people to agree with you - it was a job well done.
Good job on the "GUIDELINES"! Thanks for your time and effort.

John

Thank you, John, for proving my point – people are hung up on Concours and want to ignore what is going on with the Autocross. Everything you wrote about in your post was aimed at Concours and no where did you address what is currently going on in the Autocross.

The Concours is self-regulating. If someone puts something not stock on their car, there will be a penalty of some amount of point deduction. It hurts in the Concours to have something not stock. However, in the Autocross, there is no such penalty, so folks have felt free to run with things which are not stock and which give them a competitive advantage over a car that is stock. So running some non-stock parts is a distinct ADVANTAGE. If these are just guidelines, there is nothing to stop someone who wants to win an Autocross trophy from entering their heavily modified car, with fuel injection, 302 c.i.d., Dale’s front suspension, quick rack steering, extremely wide wheels, super sticky tires meant for the track, etc. in the Stock class. They may not do well in the Concours, but they will clean up in the Autocross. Is that what you want?

I did not see anyone advocating a division of Stock Class. Instead, make sure the cars in Stock do not have anything that gives them a competitive advantage over a stock car in the Autocross. You seem to think that many of the cars that might RUN (my word, not yours) in the Stock Class would migrate to the Personalized Class, resulting in only a few cars in the Stock Class. If that were to happen, what is the problem? Where is it written that all classes must have the same number of cars? Having only a few women in each of the classes has not stopped the clubs from handing out Autocross trophies to them (and rightfully so). I believe that many of these cars currently running non-stock items to get a competitive advantage in the Autocross would switch those parts back to stock parts rather than move into the Personalized Class.

If these are not meant to be hard and fast rules, then why do we list things in the Table and not simply allow the verbiage in the philosophical paragraphs provide the guidance? An even better question, is why even have classes if there are NO RESTRICTIONS on what can be entered into any of the classes?

 

[67MKII]

David,
I agree with you completely.
Having one set of guidelines that would fairly and adequately cover Concourse AND Autocross would do a disservice to entrants in both events.
A guideline that may seem fair for a set of cars in the concourse may give an unfair advantage to a few in that same set of cars running the autocross.
There should be separate guidelines for Concourse and Autocross in each of the categories - otherwise you are mixing apples and oranges.
Not an easy task, and one that would take more than just a few minutes to put together.

John

 

[67MKII]

Poor wording in my last post.

What I meant to say is:

Having one set of guidelines could not fairly and adequately cover Concourse AND Autocross without doing a disservice to entrants of both events....

I still think this group did a good job of putting guidelines together and the document can be a "work in progress" as our events become larger with more and more Tigers coming out of garages with and without restorations.

 

[1966 TGR]

One other factor that is motivating the efforts to better define judging standards is the increasing interest in Tigers at major concours. For example, the Hilton Head Concours d'Elegance in November is likely to have a Tiger or Sunbeam Class, and there will be others as Tigers have been "discovered." More consistent and nationally recognized standards will provide some integrity and credibility for the marque and we may indeed see larger gatherings of stock class cars in the future as John mentioned

At the same time, this is not intended to take the fun out of the hobby. That's why we have three classes that allow owners to enjoy their cars they way they like. This is unusual and I think makes the Tiger community special in that regard.

 

[spmdr]

One thing I didn't mention.....

....My first TU event was an eye opener GREAT Event!

Back then, I was young and had never been party to such an all encompassing HAPPENING!

To do a Car show(Concourse) AND Rally AND an AutoX AND Quiz, ALL in one event is AWESOME! (If you have not been to a TU, put it on your Bucket List!!!)

BUT, to pull it off with ALL of the COMPETITORS at the same level of FAIRNESS,

Didn't happen.

In the years since my first TU, there has been more than a few attempts to tune up the event.

AND I have been in on a few of them.

One thing that has been made clear, to me, is that there is little chance of making it FAIR in Personalized and Modified classes because there is such a wide range of CHANGES that can be made.

HOWEVER, Stock class HAS the opportunity that the others don't.

If, yes a BIG IF, Stock class was LIMITED to STOCK ONLY cars, NO Options of any type, then there is a BETTER chance of FAIRNESS.

In view of the market AND what the Clubs claim to promote, it seems to me there should be more effort put into promoting the STOCK Tiger (NO options).

If I had a Stone, Bone, or Groan STOCK Tiger, I wouldn't enter it in the "Stock" class and expect anything remotely resembling a fair chance running against an LAT OPTIONED car.

Stock has a definition.

It has been pointed out that it (should) make NO difference how many cars are in stock class...But my guess is that more would show up if it were a REAL Stock class (and more effort put into supporting the UN-restored cars).

Now the FIX!

I think the NEXT time a tune up happens, the classes NEED to have different degrees, Stock 1, Stock 2, etc.

...nothing like throwing more awards at an under subscribed group to boost the numbers....:------

(I step off the soap box)

 

[hottigr]

Good points, Dan...

Kirk

 

[VaCat33]

Possible Option

Hi All

We in TEAE are considering a “Preservation Class,” where originality will reign supreme. We have not figured out the mechanics yet, but we are working on it. Many owners have nice unrestored cars that are very original, but they do not have a chance against fully restored cars. This will reward those owners.

We might go with a system where the car is judged solely against a standard. If you get a certain amount of points you get an award. The Antique Auto Club of America does it that way.

 

[Doug C]

....My first TU event was an eye opener GREAT Event!

Back then, I was young and had never been party to such an all encompassing HAPPENING!

To do a Car show(Concourse) AND Rally AND an AutoX AND Quiz, ALL in one event is AWESOME! (If you have not been to a TU, put it on your Bucket List!!!)

BUT, to pull it off with ALL of the COMPETITORS at the same level of FAIRNESS,

Didn't happen.

In the years since my first TU, there has been more than a few attempts to tune up the event.

AND I have been in on a few of them.

One thing that has been made clear, to me, is that there is little chance of making it FAIR in Personalized and Modified classes because there is such a wide range of CHANGES that can be made.

HOWEVER, Stock class HAS the opportunity that the others don't.

If, yes a BIG IF, Stock class was LIMITED to STOCK ONLY cars, NO Options of any type, then there is a BETTER chance of FAIRNESS.

In view of the market AND what the Clubs claim to promote, it seems to me there should be more effort put into promoting the STOCK Tiger (NO options).

If I had a Stone, Bone, or Groan STOCK Tiger, I wouldn't enter it in the "Stock" class and expect anything remotely resembling a fair chance running against an LAT OPTIONED car.

Stock has a definition.

It has been pointed out that it (should) make NO difference how many cars are in stock class...But my guess is that more would show up if it were a REAL Stock class (and more effort put into supporting the UN-restored cars).

Now the FIX!

I think the NEXT time a tune up happens, the classes NEED to have different degrees, Stock 1, Stock 2, etc.

...nothing like throwing more awards at an under subscribed group to boost the numbers....:------

(I step off the soap box)

Dan, after reading this post a number of time I think that ultimately that stock should mean “how the car left the factory” and that any variation should be dealt with by a point deduction. With saying this I think what was just done should be commended; it is just a beginning.

 

[HolyCat]

Accessories are Stock

Dan, after reading this post a number of time I think that ultimately that stock should mean “how the car left the factory” and that any variation should be dealt with by a point deduction. With saying this I think what was just done should be commended; it is just a beginning.

The LAT accessories were listed in a Sunbeam brochure for cars here in the US. Rootes/Sunbeam supported them. Many cars today have manufacture approved and/or designed accessories available that are not installed at the factory. My Subaru Forester left Japan without body side molding on it, but it now has the Subaru body side molding as listed in the list of Subaru accessories. They are stock.

Due to the early connection between Rootes and Shelby, Shelby had a hand in a lot of the LAT accessories. Many wee the same as the Cobra parts. Tigers were not manufactured in high numbers, as we know, and from a marketing standpoint it did not make sense to put the options on cars at the factory, since the eventual buyer may not want that particular accessory on that particular car. It is a lot easier to have them be dealer installed. Furthermore, it does not make economic sense to send the LAT parts to the UK for installation at the factory. Yes, a few LAT parts were shipped to the UK, but there is no evidence they were ever installed at the factory, either.

Since the LAT brochure was issued in the US (I don't know if it was used in Canada also), these are stock accessories here in the US. That is not to say they would constitute as stock in other countries where Tigers were sold.

I cannot understand why folks here in the US think that LAT parts are not stock. Are some folks trying to "pull down" LAT options to put them into the same category as their "period correct" aftermarket items like Mallory ignition or Carter carb?

Bottom line - We have Sunbeam brochures that show these LAT parts available for sale. The fact that a particular part was not installed in England makes no difference.

 

[VaCat33]

To add to Dave’s comments.

As an Antique Auto Club of America member, I have had my car judged at AACA events. At my first show the judges, although not Sunbeam people, immediately focused on my LAT options, especially the induction set up with Edelbrock manifold and Holley Carb. When I showed them the dealer brochures for LAT items they accepted them as dealer accessories...and they are pretty strict on items being “stock.”