Class Guidelines

[1966 TGR]

I agree that true survivor cars and completely stock out- of- the- factory cars should be admired and recognized in some fashion and the cross club working group has discussed this at length. The urgent priority was to better define the classes that already exist for purposes of upcoming Tigers United.

Please note that in concours judging, the guidelines are very specific that the presence of an authentic LAT option (or a hardtop vs softop) is not an automatic plus or minus. These are to be considered neutral and should be judged on whether they are correct and in good condition, the same as a stock component would be.

It is true that some LAT items enhance performance, such as 4 bbl carb and f4b manifold, alternative diff and transmission ratios (Anybody want to go and inspect for those?), traction bars, and of course wheels. Stock steel wheels? not a good choice for autocross because of known cracking issues.

And how to define what a "stock" tire is? Dunlop bias ply R5 5.9 x 13? There are some expensive replicas but not a good choice for driving on highways and unlikely owners would want to shred them up in the autocross prior to the concours. And we sure don't want anyone driving on 40-50 year old tires.


So what about modern radial tires, which are the sensible choice? Or minimum tread high performance 13 inch tires that are approximately the right size. Are these truly stock?

And there is driver skill, which can offset a lot of these other variables.

By now I hope everyone can see what the cross-club working group has been wrangling with since last October.

 

[HolyCat]

Lucky You!

As an Antique Auto Club of America member, I have had my car judged at AACA events. At my first show the judges, although not Sunbeam people, immediately focused on my LAT options, especially the induction set up with Edelbrock manifold and Holley Carb. When I showed them the dealer brochures for LAT items they accepted them as dealer accessories...and they are pretty strict on items being “stock.”

It's a good thing you had a copy of the Sunbeam LAT accessories brochure with you and were able to educate the judges. I am sure that not very many folks in general antique and classic cars know or understand about the LAT accessories. I wonder what the AACA rules say about the definition of stock accessories versus aftermarket accessories. They might help one and all understand about how the LAT options fit in the Stock class.

 

[VaCat33]

AACA Guidelines

David

From the AACA Judging Manual...

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an
antique vehicle, which has been restored to the
same state as the dealer could have prepared
the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This
includes any feature, option or accessory shown
in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales
literature, or company directives for the model
year of the vehicle."

They also have a Historical Preservation of Original Features Class which focuses on originality over restoration.

 

[hottigr]

AACA

Has got a good thing going on!

 

[Doug C]

Has got a good thing going on!

Yes and discussions like this will find there way back to the powers to be who make they decisions as to what the guide line will be.

I think that the Tigers that competes in autocross without LAT items maybe at a dis-advantage with the Tigers that don’t have them.

Also how do you feel about LAT items that may be reproduced and are not original? Just asking.

 

[hottigr]

hmmm...

LAT options that are reproduced? Good question. Two thoughts. If you had a bone-stock survivor class, probably not. But, in the current three-category class system currently being used...yes, if they are faithful reproductions. That's my initial thinking, anyway. Kirk

 

[HolyCat]

LAT Reproductions

Seems to me that if the concours judges can't tell if it is a repo LAT option, it won't be an issue there. In the autocross, if the repo part does provide an unfair advantage over the original LAT option, they should not be allowed.

 

[at the beach]

LAT History

One thing significant about the early LAT Options is how closely they were tied into Rootes' concept for the Tiger. At least four months before the first production Tiger was completed by Jensen, Lord Rootes had contracted with Shelby American to develop and sell these LAT Options to Rootes. These were not last minute add-ons. The LAT Options were part of Rootes' Tiger concept from the beginning.

Yes, the options were contracted. But so was the entire Tiger! Pressed Steel did over 95% of work including the body and paint then Jensen, for a payment of £30 per car, did a few minor mods and installed the drive train before the cars were shipped, about 86% to the United States. According to Taylor's book cars that "when a car was ordered with LAT options, the work was carried out either at the Rootes Motors Inc warehouses at Long Beach, California, or at Long Island City, New York." pg 169

Does anyone know of any other construction or mechanical work done by Rootes on Tigers? Norm? I don't. It appears to me that perhaps the only mechanical work done on Tigers by Rootes itself was installing LAT Options on cars ordered with them.

Back in mid-64 one could order the base model of the new Mustang. I recall it came with a straight 6 and a manual 3 speed. Or one could choose from options like 4 speeds, Automatic Transmissions and V8 motors including 260s and 289s. There were several performance levels of 289s. The same goes for most every other car back them. When I go to a car show I see all levels of options including an occasional base model. I find those base models interesting. But as Dan hinted, driving them can be a bit boring. But I've never been to a show with a class for base models only that excluded any cars with factory options.

BTW, I'm restoring a very early Tiger. It will not have any LAT Options but I sure won't Autocross it on the factory steel wheels which had enough failures back in the day they were banned by the SCCA.

Buck

 

[Warren]

Amen

Stock isn't for everyone. I for one had a stock motor in a car with 36 horsepower and bias belted tires. Last year at Woodley Park, I'd say the most Tiger attended event outside of a United there has been several new owners showing up with heavily leaning towards stock cars. In the 6 years I have gone to that show those numbers are increasing. If I had a dollar for every non Tiger owner that came up to me at other C and C events and questioned "Does it have the original 260?" then the oh too bad reply from them I'd have another 260 collecting dust.

It's been hard to be a part of the team when you can't respond to a "why was this allowed and this isn't or a why was this car allowed to compete in this class and win that trophy?" It's also been hard to listen to those in charge say. "Guys who win are always going to find a way to win and take advantage." IMHO guy's take advantage because of a lack of rules, enforcement and just because they can exert their influence. All the hard work to build this agreement is a really good effort at a next to impossible job. The event is supposed to be fun and not a no holds barred competition for a holy grail trophy or pickle dish as sometimes called in the for fun sailing world. Great job to all putting it together, great conversation all need to heard.

 

[HolyCat]

Not Sure It is Hard

David,
I agree with you completely.
Having one set of guidelines that would fairly and adequately cover Concourse AND Autocross would do a disservice to entrants in both events.
A guideline that may seem fair for a set of cars in the concourse may give an unfair advantage to a few in that same set of cars running the autocross.
There should be separate guidelines for Concourse and Autocross in each of the categories - otherwise you are mixing apples and oranges.
Not an easy task, and one that would take more than just a few minutes to put together.

John

John,

It is not so hard to have the same rules for concours and autocross. Keep in mind how one addresses the question of what makes a car Stock, Personalized, or Modified. If one looks at the proposed guidelines, most of the differences between Personalized and Modified are improved performance items (over Stock). I maintain that the changes affecting autocross performance should be the primary criteria for what class a car should be in. It is very easy to say that anything other than factory installation or LAT dealer-installed items that give an unfair advantage in the autocross over stock is not allowed. Then likewise list which of those changes give an unfair advantage over stock are not allowed even in Personalized. And then, pretty much anything goes in the Modified. The proposed guidelines lay out many of these items and in which class into which they indicate the car should be placed.

In the proposed guidelines, there one or two rules. All it takes to have fairness in the autocross is to say that all of these are rules and not just guidelines. Leaving them as guidelines only encourages the folks who have been running in Stock (or Personalized instead of Modified) with performance enhancements to continue to do so and maintain an unfair advantage within their class.

 

[JB66CAT]

New Rules er Guidelines

I applaud those who participated in coming up with these guidelines. Quite an undertaking! You can't please everyone. One thing that was interesting to me was the engine displacement. A 302 is allowed in personalized but if you freshened it up with a .030 overbore you just got bumped to modified. Just an observation.

 

[1966 TGR]

Thank you for your comment about the guidelines. The intention was to differentiate engines that have strokes longer than 302. "Cleanup" overbores for rebuilds shouldn't be penalized in either stock or personalized. We may clarify this in future guidelines.

 

[Doug C]

So I assume that if someone wins a trophy they may have to tear down the engine? Just joking.

 

[at the beach]

Class Guidelines Revised

The Guidelines have been revised to clarify that strokes larger than the 302's stock stroke of 3.000 inches should fit better in modified.

The wording about displacements larger than 302 has been eliminated.

Thanks to Jim for bringing this to our attention.

Buck
admin

 

[BillRo]

Buck,
Why don't we have a new concourse-only trophy for the best really stock, no options, from the factory car. Perhaps a perpetual trophy with a replica to the winner. Like Lord Rootes, cannot win more than once and not awarded if not deserved, to encourage really stock cars.

 

[VaCat33]

Possible Option

Bill

We in TEAE are working on a PRESERVATION CLASS (exact name TBD). This class will award originality and cars that are not restored. Exact details still being worked, although the criteria used by the Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA) gives a good starting point.

 

[at the beach]

...why don't we have a new concourse-only trophy for the best really stock, no options

Bill,

I certainly don't know. And I don't know why you're asking me since I certainly don't speak for CAT or the other clubs involved in TUs.

Since you asked, would you like me to guess?

1) Perhaps because there has been relatively little interest in the stock Class? It's always the smallest. I've seen 6 or less cars entered in Stock while the other two classes approach 20 or more.
2) Perhaps because the best stock class car is already honored with the "Howie", one of the most prestigious awards. It usually is won by a base model car without any options. Options do not in themselves affect the judging. So it's possible that a nicer Tiger "contaminated" with an option or options could beat an inferior base model for the "Howie". (In my recollection, that hasn't happened very often recently.)
3) Perhaps because Lord Rootes clearly intended for owners of his Tigers to have the choice of a series of options that he negotiated and contracted, it seems silly a half century later to redefine his vision for his car.
4) All of the above?
5) None of the above?

As Dan pointed out early in this tread, marketplace pricing is now driving up interest in base model cars. Maybe we'll one day see enough of them show up as to warrant more special recognition than the "Howie". Stay tuned!

Buck
at the beach