Electri cooling fans

[cobrakidz]

So by reading this if I have mechanical advance then this does not pertain to me? I have a Dale's aluminum radiator, shroud and LAT style hood and in our 100 degree weather cannot (thankfully) get the temp over 190. Maybe my engine is tired.

 

[Warren]

Lots of good comments

I just installed a E fan on my Ranchero. Yes I am trying to be like Dan W.

I did some searching and reading up first and most advised placing the fan as close as possible to the inlet at the top tank. On a Tiger I guess best as close as possible to the top coolant entry hose. I have a manual switch on the old Falcon but went with a relay from the local electronic supply store and a thermostat that came with the flea market find in box 15 dollar Hayden fan. Its nice to not watch the temp gauge and let it switch on and off by itself.

I will add one to the Tiger when she comes apart next as I got one with a set of spares no relay there either. Guys seem to pick em from the junkyard but 7 bucks is a easy and cheap buy new at Signal Electronics the best place in LA for E stuff, makes Radio Shack seem like it should be named Radio Crap.

Tiger has no overheating problems now but I do I can hide the 10" fan where it won't be seen or I'd never consider it as they are butt ugly.

 

[ramseyt]

Manifold Vacuum Advance

I have settled on 15 degrees of initial static advance, 23 degrees of centrifugal advance (all-in at 2600 RPMs), and 12 degrees of vacuum advance at 15" or higher vacuum. I have found that this combination works well on Ford small blocks with up to a 9.5:1 compression ratio and a mild cam. With higher compression ratios you will need to back the initial static advance down a little.
My vacuum advance doesn't even begin to pull in until there is at least 8" of vacuum, an engine won't develop anywhere near this much vacuum during startup cranking.
One does not need to be concerned that much with detonation during warm-up because the engine is running so much richer when the choke is partially closed than it does at normal operating temperature when the choke is wide open.

I have very near this same timing setup and am pleased with the performance and cooler running engine. There is one issue I had to overcome that I think is worth mentioning: I had to back the throttle stop off to get the idle down to normal with the 27 degrees advance. After that adjustment, when I crack the throttle to pull off, the engine would stumble because I immediately lose the 12 degrees vacuum advance. My solution was to add a "slow bleed" check valve in the vacuum advance line. This allows the vacuum advance timing to slowly fall off over 3-5 seconds and until I'm moving and above idle. Problem solved

 

[wag123]

I have very near this same timing setup and am pleased with the performance and cooler running engine. There is one issue I had to overcome that I think is worth mentioning: I had to back the throttle stop off to get the idle down to normal with the 27 degrees advance. After that adjustment, when I crack the throttle to pull off, the engine would stumble because I immediately lose the 12 degrees vacuum advance. My solution was to add a "slow bleed" check valve in the vacuum advance line. This allows the vacuum advance timing to slowly fall off over 3-5 seconds and until I'm moving and above idle. Problem solved

After I did this I had to adjust the idle mixture settings in addition to adjusting the idle speed. If they are not richened up a little the engine will run too lean at idle and you will get a stumble. The problem with using a check valve like you have done is that the vacuum advance won't come down fast enough to avoid pinging during acceleration in the mid RPM range from having too much advance.

 

[wag123]

You should not run more than 33 degrees total advance in a Ford small block
and running as much as 45 degrees on the highway with vacuum advance for gas mileage if you are concerned with mileage seems to work on stock motors. My 302 is not even in the neighborhood of being stock @ 385 hp and what's a choke !!!....Detonation of any kind will damage your motor it just takes longer in a stock motor...

Moondoggie

Funny, everything that I have read on the internet says that a nearly stock lower compression Ford small block can use as high as 50-52 degrees of TOTAL advance (static+centrifugal+vacuum) with 89-93 octane pump fuel. My personal experience bears this out.
33 degrees of static+centrifugal would be about right for a high performance high compression Ford small block although I have read that some people run as high as 36 degrees. 33 degrees is what the factory dual point non-vacuum advance ignitions would be set at. If you are running vacuum advance, add 12 degrees to the 33 and you get 45 degrees, about the max you can run in a high compression engine using 93 octane pump fuel. Having a vacuum advance distributor is the way to go for street use.

 

[Moondoggie]

Funny, everything that I have read on the internet says that a nearly stock lower compression Ford small block can use as high as 50-52 degrees of TOTAL advance (static+centrifugal+vacuum) with 89-93 octane pump fuel. My personal experience bears this out.
33 degrees of static+centrifugal would be about right for a high performance high compression Ford small block although I have read that some people run as high as 36 degrees. 33 degrees is what the factory dual point non-vacuum advance ignitions would be set at. If you are running vacuum advance, add 12 degrees to the 33 and you get 45 degrees, about the max you can run in a high compression engine using 93 octane pump fuel. Having a vacuum advance distributor is the way to go for street use.

That is all well and good I guess for a stock 260 making 160 hp but by changing timing you are now messing with combustion parameters and you make the most horsepower at 33 -34 degrees of advance on a small block Ford. So as you advance beyond that the combustion temps fall because you are not burning all of the fuel and you are losing hp. It's much better to address cooling problems with a bigger radiator and pump which is the real problem that your are trying to solve....that's all I saying. My 302 makes 385 hp and with an aluminum radiator and high volume water pump and a hood that is a copy of the Hollywood 55 race car designed by Doane Spencer
with timing set at 33 degs @ 2800 rpm it runs 195 f with the outside temps as high as 100f all day long....

Moondoggie

 

[wag123]

The typical Tiger problem that most of us have is with the engine heating up at IDLE, particularly after a highway run, even with the HD aluminum radiator & high volume water pump & HD 6-blade fan. My buddy's built 302 375hp Tiger has this exact combination and HE had the idle overheating problem. After connecting his vacuum advance to manifold vacuum, working on his advance settings, and getting his Holley set-up/adjusted properly, his car stopped overheating at idle. Previously, he had installed a pusher fan that he doesn't have to use anymore. His car's drivability and fuel mileage also improved noticeably. For his advance settings we settled on 12 degrees static, 23 degrees centrifugal (all-in at 2700 RPMs), and 12 degrees vacuum advance at 12" of manifold vacuum. At WOT the vacuum advance does not com into play and he is getting about 35 degrees of advance above 2700 RPMs. It runs like a scalded dog!

 

[ramseyt]

I've never heard the ping

After I did this I had to adjust the idle mixture settings in addition to adjusting the idle speed. If they are not richened up a little the engine will run too lean at idle and you will get a stumble. The problem with using a check valve like you have done is that the vacuum advance won't come down fast enough to avoid pinging during acceleration in the mid RPM range from having too much advance.

Thanks for your input...When I went to manifold vacuum the rpm's went up to 1,500. I had to back the idle stop screw (mixture volume) down to get back to 950. My wide band 02 gauge reads 12.5-13.5 at idle. Do you recommend I richen the idle mixture until the stumble is tolerable? I've never heard the ping and am a little concerned that I might not have the ear for it. I set this up a year ago and obviously need to revisit it. Is there a "strap on" knock sensor available that could shine some light on what's going on?

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Well my 454 HP engine has 14 degrees static timing: 21 degrees of mechanical advance (all in by 2500): 10 degrees vacuum advance. So thats 31 degrees of advance at idle. Runs so cool that I may change thermostat and of course runs like a scalded dog on fire.

The engine has a 10.8:1 compression ratio.

Thanks for your input...When I went to manifold vacuum the rpm's went up to 1,500. I had to back the idle stop screw (mixture volume) down to get back to 950. My wide band 02 gauge reads 12.5-13.5 at idle. Do you recommend I richen the idle mixture until the stumble is tolerable?

Your stubble can be corrected by adjustment to the accelerator pump and or primary squirters. Too much clearance of the accelerator pump arm and cam can cause a stumble. Too small of a squirter, the same.

 

[Moondoggie]

Well my 454 HP engine has 14 degrees static timing: 21 degrees of mechanical advance (all in by 2500): 10 degrees vacuum advance. So thats 31 degrees of advance at idle. Runs so cool that I may change thermostat and of course runs like a scalded dog on fire.

The engine has a 10.8:1 compression ratio.


Duke..

Your 454 number comes off a chassis dyno and you are pumping in what you think are losses and although that might get you in the ball park it is still a GUESS at best. My numbers come from a engine dyno that routinely tests race motors and is accurate. Again think about what is happening here, lower temps come from unspent fuel and that means less horse power it's just how things work. If your happy with less than perfect horse power so be it you should probably not try to run me......your getting to be a short timer over there when do you actually leave ???

Moondoggie

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Your 454 number comes off a chassis dyno and you are pumping in what you think are losses and although that might get you in the ball park it is still a GUESS at best. My numbers come from a engine dyno that routinely tests race motors and is accurate.

Nope, you are wrong. Too the tune of over $600, my engine was broken in on an engine dyno, also for Ford racing engines, and with lots of tuning and a better a carb needed made 416.7 HP (with a fat AFR of 11.1:1) and 414.9 Ft-Lb torque (with even fatter AFR of 10.8:1).

http://youtu.be/gBUFgMc-HvQ?list=U


The 454 comes from a chassis dyno with a industry standard of 15% loss from the toploader, and rear end (386.3 RWHP / .85 ='s 454.47 crank HP). Engine was in better tune with both ignition tweaked out and a top of the line Holley racing carb that was tuned with a real time wide band O2 sensor.

If you read through this article - http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0311_drivetrain_power_loss/viewall.html
My 15% is low and my engine actually produces much more than 454.


I do not inflate or falsify power numbers...ever. Face the facts Dawg, my engine produces a lot more power then yours....period. Don't be sad, it produces more power than 90% of carbed and fuel injected 347's.

 

[wag123]

Well my 454 HP engine has 14 degrees static timing: 21 degrees of mechanical advance (all in by 2500): 10 degrees vacuum advance. So thats 31 degrees of advance at idle.

Huh? You shouldn't be getting ANY of that 21 degrees of centrifugal advance at idle speed Duke, so 14+10=24. 24 degrees at idle is what I set-up Tom's car at, while mine is set at 27 degrees with a lower compression ratio.
Tom corrected me on the HP of his 302, he told me that it is 345 not 375. Regardless, it runs STRONG!

 

[Duke Mk1a]

Huh? You shouldn't be getting ANY of that 21 degrees of centrifugal advance at idle speed Duke, so 14+10=24. 24 degrees at idle is what I set-up Tom's car at, while mine is set at 27 degrees with a lower compression ratio.

Good catch and you are 100% correct, static + vacuum for 24 at idle.


Electric Cooling Fans?