JAL ...001

[Austin Healer]

If the car was TAC’d laff’s and all, would you have to go by the JAL tag authenticity since the chassis tag is so obviously font stamped wrong? Would have been interesting on the outcome of that. The car is done well, informed the owner that the only other place a S/N would match would be on the rear end snout with the last 4 digits if the earlier cars had that.

rear axle numbers don't match the vin and aren't even recorded in the early ledgers for the Mk1's until about car 400 or so. The first character is a letter for the month followed by the year and then three digits (early cars) that are usually around 50-150 off of what the chassis number is/was but they are out of sequence which is part and parcel of the entire way Jensen operated. Gearbox numbers are also not recorded early on. Keys are the first thing besides JAL and engine number that started to be added to the ledger info. It's really interesting looking at a ledger page and realizing that out of 20 some odd cars there were only 3 or 4 different keys used!

 

[65beam]

If the car was TAC’d laff’s and all, would you have to go by the JAL tag authenticity since the chassis tag is so obviously font stamped wrong? Would have been interesting on the outcome of that. The car is done well, informed the owner that the only other place a S/N would match would be on the rear end snout with the last 4 digits if the earlier cars had that.

Am I wrong that cars have received a TAC even though they have a replacement VIN tag as well as the correct rivets?

 

[HRS121E]

Using the STOA single look up of a TAC shows Certificate No.134 was issued for B9470061 in 1994. The attached image shows this Tiger's scuttle with JAL in place but not the VIN plate. The image is well over 10 years old.

 

[Austin Healer]

Using the STOA single look up of a TAC shows Certificate No.134 was issued for B9470061 in 1994. The attached image shows this Tiger's scuttle with JAL in place but not the VIN plate. The image is well over 10 years old.

View attachment 18577

Well, now I know the story behind the JAL tag! it would appear that someone wasn't happy with the original chassis number and made up a new tag with incorrect number and got it registered in a no title state... Now Bruce Paul can be informed what the real chassis number is for his car and that it has been tac'd in the past. He can also probably figure out who changed it between the owner who had it tac'd in '94 and the entity he bought the car from.

 

[michael-king]

Am I wrong that cars have received a TAC even though they have a replacement VIN tag as well as the correct rivets?

You can get a TAC even if the car has no VIN.. or the wrong one ... The inspection identifies that the body was modified by Jensen... It would if course be noted the Tags were missing...

If you are trying to make a point that someone could have a repro tag and use original rivets to secure it and get that part circled on the form... They might get it circled.. but notes about repro tag would be taken...

I would suggest these days in that situation that the No should be circled on the original rivets... They might be the original Style but clearly not factory affixed

 

[ABSunbeams]

Well, now I know the story behind the JAL tag! it would appear that someone wasn't happy with the original chassis number and made up a new tag with incorrect number and got it registered in a no title state... Now Bruce Paul can be informed what the real chassis number is for his car and that it has been tac'd in the past. He can also probably figure out who changed it between the owner who had it tac'd in '94 and the entity he bought the car from.

The car was auctioned in Auburn in early 90’s to the Imperial Palace and was as pictured. The current owner (not Bruce Paul) bought the car from IP. If the car was TAC’d back before the auction then it was by previous owner. Supposedly Don Gould did the restoration, is that who‘s name is on the TAC?

 

[Austin Healer]

Currently, TAC inspectors are being directed to circle "NO" on all certificates regardless. At least that's what I was told by the TAC inspectors in my area. I would offer that the TAC process currently is, at best, better than nothing, but less than ideal.

For Norm Miller, he would put you on his TIROST list only if 2 or more components (ideally more than 2) matched the ledger entries. (engine, g'box, axle and keys) Under the current system, all you have to do is present a shell that has Jensen mods (which changed from series to series) to get a tac certificate. Michael is correct, cars with missing, or incorrect, identifying elements have been tac'd and given certificates. The white car in Texas has an entirely made up (fictional number) JAL tag... at least it's noted on the certificate as being wrong...

it'd be nice if it was harder to get a certificate, or it meant more... The Healey guys have a process for certification of a genuine Austin Healey 100M (640 factory built examples). It mirrors a lot of Miller's requirements. and adds a bunch more.

This would be beneficial to establish values between a car that has "Tiger elements" from a car with matching numbers, components, and original rivets.

As I said, the current system is better than nothing, but is just a first step for establishment that the ENTIRE car started as a Tiger AND that it's the Tiger that the identity plates say it is. Right now, a prospective buyer still has a lot of decisions to make and research to do to establish if the TAC certificate proffered really establishes a value or not. This is where continuous history and documentation comes into play. All of the Tigers I have ever bought had complete histories, original rivets and mostly matching components. The Mk2 I bought out of Canada had the original rear axle, ignition lock, valve covers with the original foil label, and door locks and the tags were affixed with original screws and rivets.. If it hadn't had, I would have passed no matter how low the asking price.

Currently, I also own an Austin Healey 3000 MK2 tri-carb 2 seater (centershift gearbox) 141 of these were built, 5 were factory rally cars. 130 of these came to the USA. I would never have bought it without knowing the entire history and having the identity confirmed 10 ways from Sunday...

 

[Austin Healer]

The car was auctioned in Auburn in early 90’s to the Imperial Palace and was as pictured. The current owner (not Bruce Paul) bought the car from IP. If the car was TAC’d back before the auction then it was by previous owner. Supposedly Don Gould did the restoration, is that who‘s name is on the TAC?

From Graham we know that the car was tac'd in 1994, so it was titled/registered as B9470061 at that time. from the pic Graham supplied it's obvious that the car wasn't restored and the outline of the original vin tag was still visible. Whoever changed the vin tag, did it after 1994.. Graham should be able to figure out the name of the person who had the car tac'd.

 

[HRS121E]

My interest in B9470061 LRXFE is about wanting to see correct history. The 1st page of the Jensen 'ledgers' does not show that. I'm afraid I know none of the players concerned with this Tiger

 

[Austin Healer]

My interest in B9470061 LRXFE is about wanting to see correct history. The 1st page of the Jensen 'ledgers' does not show that. I'm afraid I know none of the players concerned with this Tiger

it'd be nice to have it sorted out....

 

[mr55s]

TAC is a useful program. It proves it’s a Tiger, and comforts a potential buyer, or someone who may be interested in before writing the cheque. BAT cars are asked this question or comes up very frequently in conversation to see if the current example has been through the examination. It has become important to know if it has, or has not been through the program. I think a lot of future buyers want to know this before they put a dent in their bank account. I know I would. All the current TAC program can do at this point is say yes, it is a Tiger, then awarded a certificate and a sticker advising all who see it that it has been through their scrutiny, and yes, it did roll off the Jensen line as a Tiger. Where this falls short is that one more question needs to be asked. Does this car carry all the components …axle, trans, engine, key numbers, JAL and VIN info that matches up with the ledgers. While some may be forgiven like tumbler numbers, important issues like the VIN and JAL should line up with the Ledgers, all the better if the engine, trans and axle do also. Maybe a tiered system, stating that everything is the way it left the factory. If I was interested in B9470001 (hand crafted VIN) and bought this car and found out the VIN didn’t match the JAL or other components recorded didn’t line up, I would be looking for a TAC cert to tell me so, or litigation if found out after the fact. TAC doesn’t do this. More questions need to be asked through the TAC scrutiny to weed out cars that are 100%, to cars that have most of the components, to Algers, that are still nice cars but present a different price point when selling and disclosure to adjust your pocket book. Just my 5 cents.

 

[Austin Healer]

TAC is a useful program. It proves it’s a Tiger, and comforts a potential buyer, or someone who may be interested in before writing the cheque. BAT cars are asked this question or comes up very frequently in conversation to see if the current example has been through the examination. It has become important to know if it has, or has not been through the program. I think a lot of future buyers want to know this before they put a dent in their bank account. I know I would. All the current TAC program can do at this point is say yes, it is a Tiger, then awarded a certificate and a sticker advising all who see it that it has been through their scrutiny, and yes, it did roll off the Jensen line as a Tiger. Where this falls short is that one more question needs to be asked. Does this car carry all the components …axle, trans, engine, key numbers, JAL and VIN info that matches up with the ledgers. While some may be forgiven like tumbler numbers, important issues like the VIN and JAL should line up with the Ledgers, all the better if the engine, trans and axle do also. Maybe a tiered system, stating that everything is the way it left the factory. If I was interested in B9470001 (hand crafted VIN) and bought this car and found out the VIN didn’t match the JAL or other components recorded didn’t line up, I would be looking for a TAC cert to tell me so, or litigation if found out after the fact. TAC doesn’t do this. More questions need to be asked through the TAC scrutiny to weed out cars that are 100%, to cars that have most of the components, to Algers, that are still nice cars but present a different price point when selling and disclosure to adjust your pocket book. Just my 5 cents.

All can say is, the current TAC regimen costs $25USD for an inspection and certification... I'd HAPPILY pay 10-20 times that (yes $250-500) to have that actually mean something. Let's have a certification system that actually says that the car presented really IS the car that the vin tag says it is, and the components that the car was produced with are STILL present.... Let's make a TAC certificate really worth something.

 

[mr55s]

All can say is, the current TAC regimen costs $25USD for an inspection and certification... I'd HAPPILY pay 10-20 times that (yes $250-500) to have that actually mean something. Let's have a certification system that actually says that the car presented really IS the car that the vin tag says it is, and the components that the car was produced with are STILL present.... Let's make a TAC certificate really worth something.

Kind of what I’m saying, you used less words

 

[ABSunbeams]

According to the Book Of Norman the JAL55058 is listed with B9470058 owner was or is Andy Walker of Oklahoma City, Ok rec 4/74 Grants Pass is mentioned. Still pending for the current owner to look for the TAC sticker.

 

[Austin Healer]

So this car has been titled/registered under 3 different chassis numbers?? First B9470058, then Tac'd in '94 under B9470061LRXFE and now B9470001... 3 of it's nine lives!

Hard to understand how Norm would have listed it as B947058 as the JAL for that car is 550066 and it's engine is 1063. As Norm had the ledgers he would have known that the chassis number was wrong.

 

[HRS121E]

it'd be nice to have it sorted out....

Returning to the subject of the correct B9470001. This extract from a STOC 2020 Register of Cars shows what I believe the first 10 VIN numbers went onto. Blanks are 'don't knows'. This information was gathered over many years from Rootes Experimental Department records, first hand accounts , VIN and SAL plates seen and close inspection of development work on them. It helps to have B9470002, B9470007 and B9470010 here at my home!

A quick mini-bio. It is thought the order of vin numbers at the outset happened once an AF build was completed and ready for road testing work (and purchase tax paid!). B9470001 to B9470005 had all been built and given VINs and license numbers by mid-February 1964. This group included the Shelby race car, the two 15,000 miles endurance test cars and the New York auto show Tiger.
The next AF’s, 9 & 10 / B9470006 & B9470007 - the pre-production pilot testing twins, were on public roads in the UK and Europe by mid/late March.
The last of the batch, B9470008 to B9470010 were also finished in March.

 

[66TigerMK1A]

And then there is the additional difficulty that all the early Tigers (the first 37?) were only painted Carnival Red.

Buck

I know that Joe's B9470017 and also #18 were Moonstone... possibly at least one more

 

[michael-king]

According to the Book Of Norman the JAL55058 is listed with B9470058 owner was or is Andy Walker of Oklahoma City, Ok rec 4/74 Grants Pass is mentioned. Still pending for the current owner to look for the TAC sticker.

I know and correspond with Andy, I'll ask him about it.

 

[HRS121E]

An uncharacteristic mistake by Norm in his Book. The JAL# of B9470058 is 550066. Provenance photos are available.
JAL 550058 is exclusively that of B9470061 LRX

 

[at the beach]

then there is the additional difficulty that all the early Tigers (the first 37?) were only painted Carnival Red.

When I wrote the above passage about early Tigers I added the parenthetical question about whether the number was "37?"
I seem to remember that the the Carnival Red rally cars were among the first off the June production line.
Does anyone know the actual number for the string of all Carnival Red Tigers that started Tiger history?

BTW as a team we have completely Hijacked this thread and have seen it wander all over the place. However it has produced some good information and exchanges. That is not why it has not been split and moved already. The main reason is that in this particular thread finding a particular place to cut and move has been difficult to identify. Don't be surprised if some content is ultimately moved. (Why? If one day you want to find the chart HRS121E furnished with all the information about early AF cars, you may not think to search in Sunbeam Videos. We should find a more logical category for that.)
Buck
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