Weak Brakes

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KettleCarver

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My '66 Mark Ia did not come with a brake booster. With all the stories I have heard about them failing, I thought I would just use the manual brakes. I installed a new master cylinder and rebuilt the calipers with new seals and stainless steel pistons. The system has no leaks. I have bled the system thoroughly.

As the title says, the brakes are weaker than I am comfortable with. I was thinking of changing to a more aggressive pad. For those of you that don't use a booster, what kind of pads do you use?

Any other suggestions to improve the braking power would be welcome too.

Thanks,

Marty
 
KettleCarver said:
My '66 Mark Ia did not come with a brake booster. With all the stories I have heard about them failing, I thought I would just use the manual brakes. I installed a new master cylinder and rebuilt the calipers with new seals and stainless steel pistons. The system has no leaks. I have bled the system thoroughly.

As the title says, the brakes are weaker than I am comfortable with. I was thinking of changing to a more aggressive pad. For those of you that don't use a booster, what kind of pads do you use?

Any other suggestions to improve the braking power would be welcome too.

Thanks,

Mar
Click to expand...
Series 1 and 2 Alpines did not use a booster. They used the .70 bore brake master versus the .875 bore used on boosted systems and a different size bore rear wheel cylinder versus the ones used with boosted system. You'll find many cars without a booster have the .70 bore brake master used on series 1 and 2 Alpines as well as the rear wheel cylinders from series 2 Alpines. After a couple brake booster failures years ago this setup was suggested to me by Doug at Tiger Auto. I have a couple of my later series Alpines without boosters that are set up this way. The brakes present no problems. Another option is to use the Lockheed booster. They don't have the failures of the Girling units used by Rootes prior to switching to Lockheed hydraulics when Rootes ceased production of Tigers and series Alpines. These can be bought from Moss. Sunbeam Specialties or Classic Sunbeam may stock them also.
 
Rebuildable cores for the Girling Mk2 unit are becoming hard to source... The Lockheed or ATE booster units are a good alternative, as long as you do not mind the different appearance. The other suggestion of the smaller diameter master is also another solution.

If a good rebuildable core Girling unit can be found, they are a breeze to rebuild.
 
I still rebuild the Girlings and have some 5" and 7" stock units if needed. Also have the service replacement 5" mK 2 B units.
 
@KettleCarver

Marty, you say the brakes are weak... Most of the feedback is about the feel and effort of the brakes.. a stock system without the booster will have a longer pedal and pressure will be different. But the actual braking performance when given full pressure will be the same.

Id tour issue the feel/effort .. or is the issue the actual stopping power?
What tyres do you use?

Also what type of driving do you normally do?
 
michael-king said:
@KettleCarver

Marty, you say the brakes are weak... Most of the feedback is about the feel and effort of the brakes.. a stock system without the booster will have a longer pedal and pressure will be different. But the actual braking performance when given full pressure will be the same.

Id tour issue the feel/effort .. or is the issue the actual stopping power?
What tyres do you use?

Also what type of driving do you normally do?
Click to expand...
These are great questions Michael.

The issue I have with the brakes is actual weak stopping power. I had a friend who also owns a '66 unboosted Tiger drive the car and he agreed that the stopping power was not as good as his car. I do get a lot of travel in the pedal. I don't mind having to put extra effort into it either, if I felt I was getting good stopping power.

The car is fitted with new Dunlop Direzza ZIII's 195/50/15 front and 205/50/15 in the back.

As for driving, I will be doing mostly spirited cruising. I don't need a super high performance Tiger. I have a race car for that. I just want to have a safe and reliable Tiger that I can jump in and have fun driving as they were originally intended. I should add that this is not intended to be a concours restoration either, so I don't mind making changes or upgrades that improve the driveability, but are not necessarily "correct". That being said, I wonder if a more aggressive brake pad would help? Maybe a combination autocross/street pad?
 
KettleCarver said:
These are great questions Michael.

The issue I have with the brakes is actual weak stopping power. I had a friend who also owns a '66 unboosted Tiger drive the car and he agreed that the stopping power was not as good as his car. I do get a lot of travel in the pedal. I don't mind having to put extra effort into it either, if I felt I was getting good stopping power.

The car is fitted with new Dunlop Direzza ZIII's 195/50/15 front and 205/50/15 in the back.

As for driving, I will be doing mostly spirited cruising. I don't need a super high performance Tiger. I have a race car for that. I just want to have a safe and reliable Tiger that I can jump in and have fun driving as they were originally intended. I should add that this is not intended to be a concours restoration either, so I don't mind making changes or upgrades that improve the driveability, but are not necessarily "correct". That being said, I wonder if a more aggressive brake pad would help? Maybe a combination autocross/street pad?
Click to expand...
OK,

I was going to say you know what a stock Tiger without booster stopping power is.... And you feel yours isn't slowing as effectively....

Then I realised,you said the booster was already removed when you bought it ..... I assumed you had stock brakes ... But that's a big assumption...

You say you have 15" wheels and you have wide section(for a tiger) direzzia so the rubber is certainly up to it ...

So...What brakes are sitting inside this wheels ?
  • Stock brakes?
  • Willwoods?
  • What size and calipers, pads?
  • Disc rear? What type?

I think you may still have an issue with your existing system to get it to stop as it should.
 
If the master could be the problem, to verify what master cylinder you have you'll find that the master cylinder should have the bore size cast into the outside of the unit. It's usually raised numbers on the side of the unit. You might also check adjustment of your rear brakes if you're still using original drum brakes. I buy my .700 masters from Pegasus and I'm not sure what company made them but they do show the bore as OEM units did. I've found that semi metallic pads seem to have more stopping power than ceramic pads and tolerate higher brake temps.. They do dust quite a bit. I pull a car trailer all over the east coast and my Explorer and Expedition both have 14" rotors and I use the semi metallic pads on both.
 
michael-king said:
OK,

I was going to say you know what a stock Tiger without booster stopping power is.... And you feel yours isn't slowing as effectively....

Then I realised,you said the booster was already removed when you bought it ..... I assumed you had stock brakes ... But that's a big assumption...

You say you have 15" wheels and you have wide section(for a tiger) direzzia so the rubber is certainly up to it ...

So...What brakes are sitting inside this wheels ?
  • Stock brakes?
  • Willwoods?
  • What size and calipers, pads?
  • Disc rear? What type?

I think you may still have an issue with your existing system to get it to stop as it should.
Click to expand...
The car is fitted with stock Girling calipers, that have been rebuilt with new seals and stainless steel pistons. I don't know what pads are on there, as they came with the car. They look new and pretty stock looking. The rears are also stock brake shoes that do not look like anything special. I replaced the wheel cylinders with new ones from Sunbeam Specialties, for a Mark Ia.
 
65beam said:
If the master could be the problem, to verify what master cylinder you have you'll find that the master cylinder should have the bore size cast into the outside of the unit. It's usually raised numbers on the side of the unit. You might also check adjustment of your rear brakes if you're still using original drum brakes. I buy my .700 masters from Pegasus and I'm not sure what company made them but they do show the bore as OEM units did. I've found that semi metallic pads seem to have more stopping power than ceramic pads and tolerate higher brake temps.. They do dust quite a bit. I pull a car trailer all over the east coast and my Explorer and Expedition both have 14" rotors and I use the semi metallic pads on both.
Click to expand...
The master is brand new from Sunbeam Specialties, ordered for a '66 Mark Ia, so I assume they would give me one to the stock specs, which someone quoted as .875. The master only says "Lucas" on the side and not any kind of bore markings. I readjusted the rear brakes in accordance with the factory service just the other day and it did not improve anything.
 
Austin Healer said:
Rebuildable cores for the Girling Mk2 unit are becoming hard to source... The Lockheed or ATE booster units are a good alternative, as long as you do not mind the different appearance. The other suggestion of the smaller diameter master is also another solution.

If a good rebuildable core Girling unit can be found, they are a breeze to rebuild.
Click to expand...
I was backing away from putting in a Girling booster, as I remember reading that when they fail, you have no brakes at all. Is that also true for the Lockheed or STE boosters? No brakes at all?
 
KettleCarver said:
I was backing away from putting in a Girling booster, as I remember reading that when they fail, you have no brakes at all. Is that also true for the Lockheed or STE boosters? No brakes at all?
Click to expand...
When they fail you end up with a VERY hard pedal.... They can fail in any number of ways... I've had them fail to work properly due to crap in the one-way (non-return) valve, they can also fail if the piston in the vacuum canister gets stuck.. or when the seal on the operating piston fails. The last item will often cause the booster hose to draw brake fluid into the engine... It won't hurt the engine, but you see a lot of whire smoke.

The first 2 items mentioned will both cause a very hard pedal. Leaks into the vacuum can, generally will allow the booster to work until the can fills with fluid... once full it'll result in a hard pedal.

The unit is designed to bypass pressure to the brake system in the event of failure, so you'd never lose all braking function. Failures in the Lockheed or ATE boosters will all cause the same issues as a Girling unit.

Most people fit the Lockheed or ATE booster because they can be purchased new, and the Girling units are often not rebuildable... The major difference between the Girling units and the others is that the Lockheed and ATE units offer progressively more assist the harder you push the pedal... the Girling units are not progressive assist... the internal "switch" to engage the boost is an all or nothing affair.
 
KettleCarver said:
The master is brand new from Sunbeam Specialties, ordered for a '66 Mark Ia, so I assume they would give me one to the stock specs, which someone quoted as .875. The master only says "Lucas" on the side and not any kind of bore markings. I readjusted the rear brakes in accordance with the factory service just the other day and it did not improve anything.
Click to expand...

Austin Healer said:
Most people fit the Lockheed or ATE booster because they can be purchased new, and the Girling units are often not rebuildable... The major difference between the Girling units and the others is that the Lockheed and ATE units offer progressively more assist the harder you push the pedal... the Girling units are not progressive assist... the internal "switch" to engage the boost is an all or nothing affair.
Click to expand...
The progressive boost assist is very noticeable on my fastback Alpine GT versus other cars I've driven that have had the Girling booster replaced with the Lockheed booster. The changeover to Lockheed systems was made when production was moved to Lynwood. Cars coming to the states used a dual master cylinder with boost only being on the front brakes.
 
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KettleCarver said:
The car is fitted with stock Girling calipers, that have been rebuilt with new seals and stainless steel pistons. I don't know what pads are on there, as they came with the car. They look new and pretty stock looking. The rears are also stock brake shoes that do not look like anything special. I replaced the wheel cylinders with new ones from Sunbeam Specialties, for a Mark Ia.
Click to expand...
Do you have the alef adjusting drums?
That said...the majority of the stoping is done with the fronts...

If you have everything else in order a few thoughts...

You should switch the the earlier alpine MC so the bore size is more appropriate for the unservo setup.

Iirc Dan W wrote an article about how to adjust the pressure ( leverage) you get with a small pedal mod...and you could try that and see if it brings the retardation into play a bit earlier .

Hawk from the UK offered some softer pads that would give you a bit more whow...
 
michael-king said:
Do you have the alef adjusting drums?
That said...the majority of the stoping is done with the fronts...

If you have everything else in order a few thoughts...

You should switch the the earlier alpine MC so the bore size is more appropriate for the unservo setup.

Iirc Dan W wrote an article about how to adjust the pressure ( leverage) you get with a small pedal mod...and you could try that and see if it brings the retardation into play a bit earlier .

Hawk from the UK offered some softer pads that would give you a bit more whow...
Click to expand...
So, what are "alef adjusting drums"?

It is starting to sound like changing to an Alpine .70 master cylinder may be the most straight forward and effective way to go. 65 Beam states that you have to change to the Series 2 rear wheel cylinders as well. It is a shame, since the master and wheel cylinders are new with only about 400 miles on them.
 
michael-king said:
Do you have the alef adjusting drums?
That said...the majority of the stoping is done with the fronts...

If you have everything else in order a few thoughts...

You should switch the the earlier alpine MC so the bore size is more appropriate for the unservo setup.

Iirc Dan W wrote an article about how to adjust the pressure ( leverage) you get with a small pedal mod...and you could try that and see if it brings the retardation into play a bit earlier .

Hawk from the UK offered some softer pads that would give you a bit more whow...
Click to expand...
The early series 5 Alpines had self adjusting rear brakes but it didn't take long for them to figure out they were a pain so the self adjusters were dropped. I've been around Rootes cars since the 60's and in all of those years I have not heard a Tiger owner say anything about the use of self adjusting brakes. Were there any Tigers built that used the self adjusters? The wife has an Alpine that retains the self adjusting rear brakes instead of using early Alpine wheel cylinders and it has the 700 master and no booster. The brakes are fine for the use that it gets. My green car does have the early wheel cylinders as well as the 700 master and no booster.
 
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KettleCarver said:
So, what are "alef adjusting drums"?

It is starting to sound like changing to an Alpine .70 master cylinder may be the most straight forward and effective way to go. 65 Beam states that you have to change to the Series 2 rear wheel cylinders as well. It is a shame, since the master and wheel cylinders are new with only about 400 miles on them.
Click to expand...
Sorry typing while walking... "Self adjusting drums" these were introduced on the SV alpine but then switched back... If someone had switched parts around you could have those and they are notorious for not working properly... But as stated earlier..front does most of the stopping.

Switch to the earlier MC will help with pedal feel and might get you to be able to get more stopping power earlier...

Quick question .. can you lock the brakes up when you hit them hard?
 
michael-king said:
Sorry typing while walking... "Self adjusting drums" these were introduced on the SV alpine but then switched back... If someone had switched parts around you could have those and they are notorious for not working properly... But as stated earlier..front does most of the stopping.

Switch to the earlier MC will help with pedal feel and might get you to be able to get more stopping power earlier...

Quick question .. can you lock the brakes up when you hit them hard?
Click to expand...
What would I look for to tell if they are the self adjusting type?

I have not tried to lock up the brakes. I might get a chance to try that out tomorrow.
 
michael-king said:
Do you have the alef adjusting drums?
That said...the majority of the stoping is done with the fronts...

If you have everything else in order a few thoughts...

You should switch the the earlier alpine MC so the bore size is more appropriate for the unservo setup.

Iirc Dan W wrote an article about how to adjust the pressure ( leverage) you get with a small pedal mod...and you could try that and see if it brings the retardation into play a bit earlier .

Hawk from the UK offered some softer pads that would give you a bit more whow...
Click to expand...
The article about adjusting the pressure sounds interesting. Where can I find it?
 
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