I saw this listing on Hemmings today.
https://www.hemmings.com/listing/19...utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_marketplace
https://www.hemmings.com/listing/19...utm_medium=email&utm_source=daily_marketplace
1964 Sunbeam Tiger Convertible
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Austin Healer
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was recently on bringatrailer, failed to meet reserve, likely due to the reproduction chassis plate
66TigerMK1A
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My car has a repro tag
but on the good side, I have the correct JAL, # matching original valve covers, trans, diff and a TAC cert also Norm gave me a thumbs up to his thoughts that it was that car and did a certificate for itHoping when the day comes I won't take much of a 'hit' but looks like ALL Tigers are selling low these days
Austin Healer
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Yes, the market is REALLY soft right now, and I am not sure why.... The key to selling ANY Tiger is a TAC certificate.... w/o that I don't think there is any hope for a positive result. The most important aspect of value is correct tags, and some kind of trail of ownership and history. I've owned these cars for over 20 years (and Healeys as well) it goes up and down. Not so good for speculation, but as an owner who has no desire to sell.... not so important....My car has a repro tag
Hoping when the day comes I won't take much of a 'hit' but looks like ALL Tigers are selling low these days
Sunbeams have been an "orphan" make for a long time, and the lack of parts, especially chassis and body parts makes it even harder. BMC and Jaguar products (Triumph too) have a much larger parts supplier base, and larger enthusiast group... I started off with a Triumph GT6+ in 1980 and then got into Healeys in a big way. I've had 13, or more, Big Healeys since and still have one. a MK2 BN7 tri-carb, one of 355 made. The values of this car have been all over the map over the last 30 years. (I've owned it since 1989) as I doubt I'd ever sell it, it really doesn't matter. Same for my Mk2 Tiger... I doubt I'll sell it, so I don't really watch the prices.
I'm kind of an aberration anyway, as I drive my cars. The Tiger gets 5000 miles a year use on average....
Austin Healer
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A couple of anecdotes regarding replacement chassis tags. Several years ago I restored one of the PP (prototype) Tigers. It had a damaged chassis tag that the owner wanted me to replace. I refused. The reason being, a reproduction chassis plate (no matter how accurate), only raises questions about the provenance of the car. You don't want to have to answer a lot of questions about chassis plates unless you absolutely have to.
On that point... I also own an Austin Healey MK2 3000 (type BN7). Only 355 were made and only 350 were sold to the public. This car was stolen in the late 60's and in Washington, when these cars were recovered they generally ended up in wrecking yards and had their chassis and body tags stripped and destroyed.
The person I bought it from (his family) had bought the car in 1971 and only had a wrecking yard bill of sale. The bill of sale did have the correct chassis number, but the tags were long destroyed. Like Tigers, Healeys do not have hidden stampings of the chassis number. I was able to confirm the chassis number through BHMIT with the engine, gearbox, rear axle and key numbers.. The Washington State patrol issued me a new title with the correct chassis number and I had new tags made for the chassis and body numbers. That was in 1989. I have kept all of the documentation so that, if I should ever sell, I have a valid explanation as to why the car has reproduction identity plates.
On that point... I also own an Austin Healey MK2 3000 (type BN7). Only 355 were made and only 350 were sold to the public. This car was stolen in the late 60's and in Washington, when these cars were recovered they generally ended up in wrecking yards and had their chassis and body tags stripped and destroyed.
The person I bought it from (his family) had bought the car in 1971 and only had a wrecking yard bill of sale. The bill of sale did have the correct chassis number, but the tags were long destroyed. Like Tigers, Healeys do not have hidden stampings of the chassis number. I was able to confirm the chassis number through BHMIT with the engine, gearbox, rear axle and key numbers.. The Washington State patrol issued me a new title with the correct chassis number and I had new tags made for the chassis and body numbers. That was in 1989. I have kept all of the documentation so that, if I should ever sell, I have a valid explanation as to why the car has reproduction identity plates.
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The softer Tiger values relate to a few things...imho
The 2014 50th anniversary coincided with the early parts of the "hot" period of the asset bubble after the GFC.. so Tiger values in 2014 were rising fast and lots of speculation was going on and quick flipping at profit... This drove the prices well above the actual level of marque enthusiasm and interest.
As that's cooled so have the prices.... Add to that another decade (60 th next year) and the demographic of people who know/desire the cars is shrinking.. so smaller market demand... The new "classic surge" is early 80s-late 90s cars .. even some early 00'ties stuff..
The occasional Tiger will break 100k... But the majority are now 50-80k cars
The 2014 50th anniversary coincided with the early parts of the "hot" period of the asset bubble after the GFC.. so Tiger values in 2014 were rising fast and lots of speculation was going on and quick flipping at profit... This drove the prices well above the actual level of marque enthusiasm and interest.
As that's cooled so have the prices.... Add to that another decade (60 th next year) and the demographic of people who know/desire the cars is shrinking.. so smaller market demand... The new "classic surge" is early 80s-late 90s cars .. even some early 00'ties stuff..
The occasional Tiger will break 100k... But the majority are now 50-80k cars
Austin Healer
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I have to agree, we're aging out. At least my 34 year old daughter still has a love affair with British sportscars! She owns a '79 Spitfire, grew up around my Healeys, and loves to drive the Tiger. She'll get it when I shuffle off my mortal coil!!
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I used to be one of the younger Tiger owners, buying mine in the mid 2000s when I was in my mid 20s.... Still a younger owner .. but now a middle aged guy .
I think another issue is the orphan brand... And it does count as does brand perception of current cars of a marque... I see Jaguar as an interesting case study.. the E-Type is a super ionic car.. so always draws attention.. and they made a lot of them so younger people see them at shows ... But Jaguar values are dropping... Look at xk120/140 values.. iconic cars.. and in my youth valuable classics.. but they have corrected... And unless Jag digs themself out of a hole ans starts selling more and interesting cars.. they will disappear...and likely so will some of the value of their cars..
Ask an average 30year old about the impression of Jaguar... Likely they will have heard of the marque.. but it's a small outlier....
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This conversation about age came up at the TE/AE United in Canada back in September. You'll find most attendees are of the baby boomer group give or a few years younger or older than the average boomer. This year I think will be #39 for us without missing either a United or a SUNI event. These events are a family reunion. Like many of the regular group we were much younger years ago and the cost to attend was much less and life was different. You'll find a large percentage that bring a Beam have owned the car for a long time. Their kids that rode with Mom & Dad years ago don't make it due to life getting in the way. We have that situation with a kid that is now 40 with three kids, lives in Florida and he grew up behind the seats of our green Alpine. There wasn't a car seat for him. Usually starting late March and continuing thru September or October the wife and I travel the east coast at least once a month for either Brit shows or Vintage racing. Whether we are at Mid Ohio or the Glen for vintage races or whatever show, we find most owners are of the same older age group. We've attended the Import event at Carlisle, Pa. for many years. You'll find the younger folks mainly drive their modified imports. It's amazing what can be done to a Honda. Back in the early 80's the wife turned down a nice Tiger for sale in Columbus with a 10K asking price. She ended up buying our first Harrington instead of the Tiger. The Tiger is still in the area but it couldn't now be bought for 10K.
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It's nice that your kids have embraced the hobby, it's interesting to see the families where the passion for the cars passes down. Doesn't mean they will live in the same area or attend shows with you . But are still engaged with the car .
Same with people who have kids with their own families.. and the passion has passed down so the grandkids are into cars... Probably a sign that the kids enjoyed the time with their parents and engagement.
It's not like when you were in your middle age you didn't involve the kids and enjoy the hobby too.. 😉
Austin Healer
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We just have the one kid. I broke my back for the second time just 9 days after she was born... so I was the stay at home dad. She grew up around me working on the cars for clients. At that time, mostly Big Healeys. She'd go with me to get parts, see a machinist, or watching me repair things. One day Mom came home and daughter and I were rebuilding an SU carbie... She must have been about 5 years old... She explained all the parts to "mom"...
She's 34 now, and we have always had a very close connection. We built the Spitfire as a father/daughter project while she was in High School. She loves the Tiger, but really wants me to build her a Healey 100.
So much better than a kid addicted to a smart phone or social media....
She's 34 now, and we have always had a very close connection. We built the Spitfire as a father/daughter project while she was in High School. She loves the Tiger, but really wants me to build her a Healey 100.
So much better than a kid addicted to a smart phone or social media....
I am the owner of this car. I fail to understand the chassis plate issue since everything matches both the TAC and Coventry Archive and factory records.
Interesting comments. My 1964 Sunbeam Tige MK1 which was downgraded in the comments when on BAT due to the reproduction chassis tag has a confirmed number with the engine, gearbox, rear axle and keys matching the factory records. I have one of the original keys to the car. I have seen other Tiger's up for auction without complete documentation and they got a pass. Why the inconsistant treatment?
Picture deleted
Moderator's note: I pulled the picture of the build records, since it also displayed info about Tigers not pertinent to this discussion.
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Austin Healer
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See my earlier comments... A replacement chassis tag just raises questions... Why is there a replacement tag, and what happened to the original? Questions that in your case didn't have an answer as you do not know why, or when, the tag was replaced. I appreciate that the car has a TAC. That establishes that the car is really a Tiger. It's also a plus that the components match the build records for the car, and I said as much in a comment on the BAT auction when it was current. Some people want to have all of the identity markers and correct tags in place when purchasing a car of limited production, like a Tiger.
Pre '64 Healeys with repro chassis plates have the same problems... Both cars do not have "hidden" chassis number stampings, so the only positive ( somewhat) way of identification is to look at component numbers. BTW, Healey tags are only held on with #4 sheet metal screws, so even easier to switch. I have seen a number of Healeys have poor results on a BAT auction because of repro tags...
Pre '64 Healeys with repro chassis plates have the same problems... Both cars do not have "hidden" chassis number stampings, so the only positive ( somewhat) way of identification is to look at component numbers. BTW, Healey tags are only held on with #4 sheet metal screws, so even easier to switch. I have seen a number of Healeys have poor results on a BAT auction because of repro tags...
Austin Healer
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They didn't necessarily get a pass. Ultimately it's the pool of bidders that make a determination. I was simply stating an opinion. You might remember the Blue Tiger on BAT that wasn't really a Tiger shortly before your listing... It had genuine tags, but as I pointed out in the listing comments, they weren't originally affixed to that car. The car ended up being pulled. It's always best to have little to no questions regarding authenticity. If there is a problem, then be prepared to explain it to a possible buyers satisfaction. If you can't, then there is a potential for problems.
Well its been a learning experience for me. The 'pool' of bidders or buyers for other than 100% restored collection quality Tigers seems very small now. I reread all the comments for my Tiger and there were no real questions regarding authenticity before the auction closed. The car is currently priced taking into account condition and recent sales.
I just brought my first Tiger and the most important thing to me was establishing authenticity. Pretty hard to TAC a car in New Zealand but I did my research and am confident that mine is the genuine article. I also have history right back to it be used as a demonstrator in the Rootes Office in London. Prices in New Zealand are still pretty strong for classics I probably paid the equivalent of US$100K but would have cost me much more to import one from the States -Again low supply here pushes prices up-If you think Tigers are dropping in value you should look at some of the other stuff I have my 1910 Hupmobile is probably worth half of what paid for it ,My 1934 V8 Ford is worth 2/3 of what I paid for it , The 1913 Model T I sold 3 years ago is now devalued by 50%-Interestingly enough my 1930 Ford Model A is worth twice what I paid for it - My assessment is that the skills to maintain these vehicles no longer exists in most of the younger generation. I make parts for the Hupmobile on my lathe (very slowly) . The exception is the Model A for which everything is reproduced and can be brought off the shelf if you are not fussed with original appearence and optimal functionality. This conversation is had frequently at our vintage car club and no doubt at others around the world -In the end the pleasure I get from driving my cars (Yes they are all driven regularly - I'm a Doctor in a small rural town and I even do house calls in my Hupmobile ) completely offsets any losses owning them -They won't be sold until I'm gone so it won't matter to me what they are worth then -although my kids will probably fight over who gets what !
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Agree, so I just sold my 1964 Tiger at a significant loss and will move on Sold on BAT in April 2020 for $50,500 - I purchased for $62,000 in Feb. 2022 - now worth only $45,000 - less than unrestored value after at least $15,000 in upgrades. - I'll stick to vehicles with better historical retained values or like my 1968 MGB values where I do not have to worry about the $$. I did not do my homework on how thin the market is for Tigers and how many are sitting unsold. Add to this multiple cars being restored in the face of declining demand for the car.
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Joe,
What motivated you to buy the car?
1. Did you buy it to enjoy and own?
2. Enjoy and drive for a bit and then sell and try not to lose any money.
3. Buy it as a business proposition, do a few mods, tidy and sell for a profit.
The car, with you as a seller has passed through 3 hands in 2.5 years... That's musical chairs territory... The market went through a bubble especially during the covid period.
Also the Tiger market has been quite consistent in terms of overall sales volume, value curve etc.. I think even a little research or tracking various threads in the forum shows that... So if someone came in buying a car at what I consider a higher end of a mid to upper level car..expected to pour another 15k into it and bring it up even more than the investment I think that was ambitious... espcially if it had a detail like the repro ID ...
I think if buying cars to make a profit you really need to know the market and be aware of the trends
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