How much power is too much?
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Paul4223
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My relatively modest, fairly street able 302 puts out an estimated 340 hp @ about 6K rpm. Even with the close-ratio and 2.88's it can go sideways pretty quickly if I'm not careful. But of course I'm careful. 
I'm not into burning tires nor slamming gears but I still wonder what the car would feel like with say, even 50 more HP, a wide-ratio, torque arm. etc. What would it take to make a sub 12 second car? And what if one added a forced induction system, like at least one fellow who posts here has?
Whoa~!
I'm not into burning tires nor slamming gears but I still wonder what the car would feel like with say, even 50 more HP, a wide-ratio, torque arm. etc.
What would it take to make a sub 12 second car? And what if one added a forced induction system, like at least one fellow who posts here has?Whoa~!
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To be honest, I would like another 50 HP to be in the 500 range. AFR 225 heads should do the trick
Duke is that for bragging rights or just to ensure that you can turn your tyres to a cloud of smoke at every set of lights?
I remember the first time I drove my Tiger. 340hp and open exhausts on a cold day.. i thought the car was to fast and too scary.. by the second day I was comfortable with it.. 1 week later I figured it would be ok with 400hp.
Power corrupts.. Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Duke try your car with open exhaust.. just run 2.5” pipes out after your cross over.. the change in throttle response will shock you.
Paul4223
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That says it all. Once you get used to it, somehow you want more. And then even more….
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... so in my transmission planning, if I get a TKO600, i will have too for 'expansion'
Cheers, -Kevin
347 Stroker Install
I have a 347 Stroker on the Dyno now for my 66MK1A (not the Club Headers I have for it pictured). Anticipating 400hp when tweaked. What install issues/ modifications should I anticipate? Any "snakes in the grass" to watch out for? Appreciate any advice!
I have a 347 Stroker on the Dyno now for my 66MK1A (not the Club Headers I have for it pictured). Anticipating 400hp when tweaked. What install issues/ modifications should I anticipate? Any "snakes in the grass" to watch out for? Appreciate any advice!
You can never have too much power in my opinion. Now that being said, it needs to be driveable. A crazy top rpm drag cam for the street is not so fun. You have a hard time using it. Give me 2000-6500 rpm range cam and 500hp. That is my goal for my future motor.
Twin Turbo Tiger
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I have 700 RWHP and looking to step up to 800 after this rebuild and looking to try and go 8:90' in the 1/4 but it will still be on pump gas and still be drivable on the street because of the turbo setup and the auto trans
cadreamn67
Platinum Forum Member
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I had numerous problems with my 347 project but whether they are applicable to your build I cannot really say.
My Weiand Stealth intake sits the carb more rearward than the stock intake or the f4B. Result is that holley carb with center-hung float secondary bowl interfered with the scuttle.
Also that intake is taller than the f4b which meant I could only get a 1.5 inch filter element under the stock LAT hood. Not really enough air flow at higher rpm to feed 347. You may need to put a big scoop on the hood to properly feed your motor, depending on what is your setup. That particular intake cannot be machined to lower the carb fitment pad, runners too high.
For clearance purposes, I kept the stock remote filter in conjunction with my CAT headers (version just preceding current one available). Sealing not a problem if you use high temp O rings at the filter end, BTW.
I kept the generator for more of a stock look, but the holes in the mounting bracket for it did not match the holes in my Windsor Jr. heads. Made adapter plate that also gave me better belt alignment with crank and water pump pulleys so something good came of that. Similar problem on the remote filter bracket fitment to the end of the drivers side head.
With my 6 bolt block, I went with a larger clutch and HIPO bell housing. Needed to grind just a bit on bell housing to get clutch slave to fit. Used SS slave cylinder brack for 6 bolt blocks. Be sure to install the slave cylinder before installing the motor if going the same route. Real B***h to do it after motor and trans in the car like I did.
Used a high torque gear reduction starter, which worked well with the headers. Hate to try and use a stock starter. Be sure and install the starter on the motor before motor goes in car.
I put a Canton girdle on the main bearing caps along with a windage tray/screen that bolts to it. The windage screen interfered with the oil pick up tube and I had to fiddle to make that work. Be sure the pickup is the correct distance from the bottom of your pan.
The girdle, tray or something interfered with the stock dip stick going all the way in the stock tube attached to the stock timing cover. Found and made fit a stainless steel stick of same length and markings as stock one and modified the handle. The more flexible shaft slips by whatever is the obstruction. No added noises with stick installed and motor running!
BTW getting the engine in without the dip stick tube installed in the timing cover makes the engine install a lot easier.
There likely are other things that I have repressed. But at the end of the day the car is very very fast!
Hope some of that helps.
Gene
PS: Just remembered all the issues getting the Centerforce clutch to properly bolt to the Fidanza aluminum flywheel. Hole patterns did not match up. Had to have top of holes in flywheel slightly countersunk and used ARP thick washers under 3/8 (Chevy) ARP flywheel bolts. Sigh...
Also, hopefully you are using the stock 260 crank pulley and modified water pump pulley hub placement. Regular ford crank sticks out too far and will not clear the cross member...
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Power without compromise?
While some of us are Power hungry... and some even more so... it really comes down to how you use the car.,.. how you can get it to the raod and what else needs to be modified along with it.
If you are just building monster motors for gragging rights.. well... each to their own.... if you intend on using the power there are a few things to consider for your safety and also the cars health.
To get that BHP on the black stuff you will need stickier wider tyres... these will in turn put more strain on the suspension and uni body... what condition are the spring hangers in? What is the front cross member like? what about point where the X frame and the rear clip meet... are these all in good condition, have they been strengthened to deal with both age and a lot more power?
Have you uprated the rear springs and bushes? are you runnign a tramp control syste, of some kind? DO NOT USE WELD ON TRACTION MASTERS!!! have you looke dat the wheel studs on the rear?
if you are planning to use the right foot on the road, are the brakes up to the job? Stock Tiger brakes will have you gettign to 100mph fater than you can stop from it.
The top loaders are strong, but is yours in good condition, what clucth are you using? what flywheel....
All just things to consider when chasing the dyno numbers.
While some of us are Power hungry... and some even more so... it really comes down to how you use the car.,.. how you can get it to the raod and what else needs to be modified along with it.
If you are just building monster motors for gragging rights.. well... each to their own.... if you intend on using the power there are a few things to consider for your safety and also the cars health.
To get that BHP on the black stuff you will need stickier wider tyres... these will in turn put more strain on the suspension and uni body... what condition are the spring hangers in? What is the front cross member like? what about point where the X frame and the rear clip meet... are these all in good condition, have they been strengthened to deal with both age and a lot more power?
Have you uprated the rear springs and bushes? are you runnign a tramp control syste, of some kind? DO NOT USE WELD ON TRACTION MASTERS!!! have you looke dat the wheel studs on the rear?
if you are planning to use the right foot on the road, are the brakes up to the job? Stock Tiger brakes will have you gettign to 100mph fater than you can stop from it.
The top loaders are strong, but is yours in good condition, what clucth are you using? what flywheel....
All just things to consider when chasing the dyno numbers.
Most if not all here. Click pics for details - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1255824721370.2034409.1402147496&type=1&l=8f4d128016
454 crank HP.
454 crank HP.
Right on!
I bought a spare Tiger rearend (drum to drum) that had the panard & shock mounts hacked off by a drag racer. I'm going to put the stock numbers matching one in the corner and remove the factory LAT traction bars in lieu of a DW torque arm. I will bolt the shock to custom spring plates at bottom and make a custom panard that is actually correct in geometry (more like a MkII) and adjustable. The top mount will be bolted to the frame and removable. I already have Brembo calipers off of a Porsche Boxster and have the fronts fabricated and fitted them last night (with 5 lug now). All using the stock spindles and completely reversible. So all of the original stuff can go in a storage container in the event I ever want to make it bone stock again. I already have the Datsun master that will bolt in the stock location and will use a Wilwood clutch master with a hydraulic throwout bearing. I will use the toploader and a scattershield. I'm leaving the stock 260 (with aluminum intake and 4v carb) in it for now. Next winter I will install a 347 probably.
I said it before on here. I'm not into hacking up original cars with permanent radical changes. Everything I am doing is to go fast, safe and look cool, but be completely reversible.
I bought a spare Tiger rearend (drum to drum) that had the panard & shock mounts hacked off by a drag racer. I'm going to put the stock numbers matching one in the corner and remove the factory LAT traction bars in lieu of a DW torque arm. I will bolt the shock to custom spring plates at bottom and make a custom panard that is actually correct in geometry (more like a MkII) and adjustable. The top mount will be bolted to the frame and removable. I already have Brembo calipers off of a Porsche Boxster and have the fronts fabricated and fitted them last night (with 5 lug now). All using the stock spindles and completely reversible. So all of the original stuff can go in a storage container in the event I ever want to make it bone stock again. I already have the Datsun master that will bolt in the stock location and will use a Wilwood clutch master with a hydraulic throwout bearing. I will use the toploader and a scattershield. I'm leaving the stock 260 (with aluminum intake and 4v carb) in it for now. Next winter I will install a 347 probably.
I said it before on here. I'm not into hacking up original cars with permanent radical changes. Everything I am doing is to go fast, safe and look cool, but be completely reversible.
While some of us are Power hungry... and some even more so... it really comes down to how you use the car.,.. how you can get it to the raod and what else needs to be modified along with it.
If you are just building monster motors for gragging rights.. well... each to their own.... if you intend on using the power there are a few things to consider for your safety and also the cars health.
To get that BHP on the black stuff you will need stickier wider tyres... these will in turn put more strain on the suspension and uni body... what condition are the spring hangers in? What is the front cross member like? what about point where the X frame and the rear clip meet... are these all in good condition, have they been strengthened to deal with both age and a lot more power?
Have you uprated the rear springs and bushes? are you runnign a tramp control syste, of some kind? DO NOT USE WELD ON TRACTION MASTERS!!! have you looke dat the wheel studs on the rear?
if you are planning to use the right foot on the road, are the brakes up to the job? Stock Tiger brakes will have you gettign to 100mph fater than you can stop from it.
The top loaders are strong, but is yours in good condition, what clucth are you using? what flywheel....
All just things to consider when chasing the dyno numbers.
Thanks for the advice, Gene. I'll post some pictures as the project moves forward. Your car looks to be a work of art! Love that Tiger sound it produces! I'm in the next state over from you- Colorado- albeit down in the SW corner- Durango. Perhaps our cars will cross paths someday!
Cheers- Andy
Cheers- Andy
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I like where you're going with this! I want to do some of the same things you are doing - 5-lug daisy wheels - bigger brakes... Go for a watts-link in stead of a panhard bar.
Have at it!!! -Kevin
MORE POWER
I have to take issue with Jim on the advantage of the late model roller block engine. It's the heads. If you you go to COMP CAMS web site and use their computer, CAM QUEST program and vary the head flows with a given cam,gives an indication of the end power output. For example my HIPO 289 with 224 duration cam with HIPO heads yields 305 HP. My ported 351 Windsors yield 335 hp. Edelbrock Performers yield 365 hp, Trick flow 170s yield 375hp, and AFRs 165s yield 402 HP. Roller cams just allow higher RPMs and a few more HP before valve float. For the problems associated with converting to a late model roller 6 bolt block ain't worth the hassle.
I have to take issue with Jim on the advantage of the late model roller block engine. It's the heads. If you you go to COMP CAMS web site and use their computer, CAM QUEST program and vary the head flows with a given cam,gives an indication of the end power output. For example my HIPO 289 with 224 duration cam with HIPO heads yields 305 HP. My ported 351 Windsors yield 335 hp. Edelbrock Performers yield 365 hp, Trick flow 170s yield 375hp, and AFRs 165s yield 402 HP. Roller cams just allow higher RPMs and a few more HP before valve float. For the problems associated with converting to a late model roller 6 bolt block ain't worth the hassle.
TigerBlue
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Roller
Why go roller lifter? You do not need a "late Ford block". I did it with my Boss 302 block with ported Windsor heads. Hydraulic lifter cam replaced by a retro kit roller tappet roller. In short the roller tappets allow a more aggressive ramp profile. Result is cam specs higher lift with same duration or in my case more lift than the cam replaced with less duration. My rpm range in track event is up to about 6300 routinely. Less aggressive roller cams would have the same advantage over flat tappets including none of the possible break-in problems with flat tappets. It is technically a better more advanced design.
In the car? (no dyno yet) but potentially the same or greater HP with a better idle and drive-ability and low end due to less duration.
Unintended consequences. Firing order same as 5.O changes the sound and roller cams are steel rather than cast iron. May require changing the distributor gear to something compatible. Steel? Bronze? or Composite? Opinions vary.
Rick
Why go roller lifter? You do not need a "late Ford block". I did it with my Boss 302 block with ported Windsor heads. Hydraulic lifter cam replaced by a retro kit roller tappet roller. In short the roller tappets allow a more aggressive ramp profile. Result is cam specs higher lift with same duration or in my case more lift than the cam replaced with less duration. My rpm range in track event is up to about 6300 routinely. Less aggressive roller cams would have the same advantage over flat tappets including none of the possible break-in problems with flat tappets. It is technically a better more advanced design.
In the car? (no dyno yet) but potentially the same or greater HP with a better idle and drive-ability and low end due to less duration.
Unintended consequences. Firing order same as 5.O changes the sound and roller cams are steel rather than cast iron. May require changing the distributor gear to something compatible. Steel? Bronze? or Composite? Opinions vary.
Rick
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And just to muddy the water.... What about the 'mexican block' motors? I understand they have more nickel or vitamins or some such voodoo... Worth the effort in building a 'holy grail' motor? I have never really understood the value of roller cams and now I think I have more of a clue. Thanks for the education. Glad to hear adapting an earlier block to roller works too.
Cheers -Kevin
Cheers -Kevin