I currently have my Tiger on a rotiserie. There is rust through at the rear of each fender well, not bad. Rockers and doors are good. It appears to have been a CA car all its life and was stored inside for many years when the PO lost interest in repairing some front suspension damage. At this point the engine is rebuilt and balanced. Transmission rebuilt, diff has new seals and gaskets, drive shaft rebuilt and balanced, new main leaf springs, new front springs and bushings. Shock towers re-aligned and stiffened. I dont intend to sell anytime time soon. Is it worth it the money strip it to strip bare metal or carefully conserve what I already have?
To dip or to dip?
- Thread starter Tiger67
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The cost is not really the dipping or stripping or sandblasting. It's what you find afterward. Paint and bondo cover a lot of sins.
My car looked pretty good before I had it dustless water blasted. After, some rust was discovered and some miner repair damage. Every panel needed a significant amount of block sanding to true up.
However, when the car is stripped, the entire car, inside and outside, needs to be done. That's a lot more time and money than a straight respray. However, once it is done, you will know what you have.
I did discover rear spring front supports were cracked and I did the reinforcement. I could not see it until stripped.
My car looked pretty good before I had it dustless water blasted. After, some rust was discovered and some miner repair damage. Every panel needed a significant amount of block sanding to true up.
However, when the car is stripped, the entire car, inside and outside, needs to be done. That's a lot more time and money than a straight respray. However, once it is done, you will know what you have.
I did discover rear spring front supports were cracked and I did the reinforcement. I could not see it until stripped.
Thanks and agreed. I have already removed the undercoating at all known stress points on the chassis. I have the usual cracks. I also have a camera for looking inside all the nooks and crannies. Regardless all the interior non-visible components will get rust treatment. That's a given.
The dipping process does kill the tin worm causing the rust. Dipping does not remove all of the body filler nor does it remove all of the solder over the seam joints. It's best to use an epoxy primer after dipping as well as using an under coating or rust treatment inside frame rails, etc. We had one car media blasted back in 1995 and media continued to sift out until it set thru a flood in 1997. We have others that have been dipped. The photos show one of our cars that was dipped.
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Which method do you recommend? media blast or dip?
I had mine dustless blasted, like they have on tv. It was good for getting rid of everything added to the chassis and body. However, everything was full of sand. It took many many hours to vacuum/blow out all the nook and crannies in the Tiger to make it acceptable to ospho treat and get painted with epoxy primer and then Eastwood internal frame paint.
In the end, it worked out but the sand is a pain.
I had mine dustless blasted, like they have on tv. It was good for getting rid of everything added to the chassis and body. However, everything was full of sand. It took many many hours to vacuum/blow out all the nook and crannies in the Tiger to make it acceptable to ospho treat and get painted with epoxy primer and then Eastwood internal frame paint.
In the end, it worked out but the sand is a pain.
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The dipping is the method I prefer. It stops the rust process if the car has it. The body has to be washed down after chemical dipping to remove any left over chemical residue. The disadvantage to media blasting is that the media hides in places you can't get to. Even though you think everything has been cleaned you find something hiding in the interior or frame rails when you paint. Doug at Tiger Auto wasn't keen on having the wife's car blasted back in 1995 but it was one of those "do we want it done now or wait a long time" due to the dipper being backed up on work. The car was bought from one of Rick's customers in Campbell, California so it was and still is rust free. The car set thru a flood 2 years later as did three other of our Beams and they had to be restored a second time at Hagerty's expense but we have never seen a speck of media since. It must have washed out.
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Dry ice blasting is a good option as it doesn't leave media in the car and doesn't have the risk of warping panels like some more aggressive media.
Acid dipping is great at getting in all the hidden places and strips all the primers etc off so you can see what you have...
The downside is inner areas like sills and the cavities in the A posts etc are left as shiney clean... unprotected... metal.
If you have a dipping company that can immerse the car in an inhibitor after that's ideal as it will seal the inner areas so the car doesn't rust from the inside out...
Acid dipping is great at getting in all the hidden places and strips all the primers etc off so you can see what you have...
The downside is inner areas like sills and the cavities in the A posts etc are left as shiney clean... unprotected... metal.
If you have a dipping company that can immerse the car in an inhibitor after that's ideal as it will seal the inner areas so the car doesn't rust from the inside out...
Dry ice blasting is a great option for many reasons. The problem is that this process is used for industrial cleaning. It's used for cleaning in refining / petrochemical plants, food processing plants, power plants and even used by ServPro for restoration after building fires ,flooding and even mold remediation. Those demands complicate finding someone with the time to do the dry ice blasting. I contacted the dipper in Cincinnati a couple months ago about dipping another body for us and was told that he has 27 cars in front of us. This shop does cleaning for local industrial plants so I asked when he could dip it and he said it could be up to four years before he could get to it. Many in this area are turning to other ways and sources. If you search this forum you'll find a lot of photos of a Harrington with the body restoration done by Randy Willet. This car was soda blasted for similar reasons to what I've encountered. You'll find shops that do automotive restorations do take into consideration that surfaces such as the interior of the Sunbeam X frame and other areas need treated to stop the rust process from occurring again. The dipping process does neutralize the rust process. The shop that has done restorations for us used a 3M product inside these unexposed areas.
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If bet there are dry ice guys that can do it before 4 years... There are probably other dipping companies in other states that have shorter waiting times...
However then we wouldn't get to hear the same stories about delays in dipping ...so much better idea to wait.
There are problems and opinions for every way of cleaning a car body so you decide which problems you can live with before and after the restoration and make the appropriate decision.
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I have done both and for me it is all about the quality of workmanship done so research the shop and ask around big time with other car folks to make sure you get the type and quality of work you want. I really liked the metal stripping 'dip' finish afterword's BUT I believe mine was not rinsed or neutralized correctly before getting it back such that I had some 'gunk' leaking out for weeks (it did not dry quickly like water and was like a syrup consistency) - it was a good thing that I was not it a rush or deadline to prep/paint soon. Media blasting (believe it was walnut shells) turned out great but I did have a lot of media/dust to get out of 'everywhere' - and also good thing car was on a rotisserie to simplify cleanup (a rubber mallet while car turned upside down got out a lot more than a shop vac did). Of note on blasting, you can have selective areas blasted (or not) to lower costs and limit cleanup afterword's. If I do it again I will medial blast because it is a know cleanup afterword's. Agree with others that you may find out you need a lot more panel repair and straightening that you might think once you get it down to bare metal. In my case I ended up finding previous body repairs of poor quality that cost more time/$ than I would have guessed.
The shop in Cincinnati that we use does pressure wash the car after removing from the tank. When the last car went back to Tiger Auto it was manually scrubbed prior to body work. There is a shop in Toledo that dips bodies but I've heard reports both ways on their quality. I guess there is one in Indianapolis. The problem is the wait time. If you look at my photos you'll see Doug has always used a rack system. Too bad that he retired from body work.
Austin Healer
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I've done both. The problem with blasting (any media) is that it is an unholy bitch to get it out of cavities in the body, especially the sills/rockers. I've spent countless hours with air and a vacuum trying to get all of it, only to think I did, spray primer and have media come out into the fresh primer. I had my Mk2 dipped, mostly because it came out of Ontario. All of the paint and filler was completely removed. The car was dipped in a neutralizing bath, but things like the braces from the firewall to the top hats held stripping solution. I ended up having to drill holes in each end and run phosphoric acid (metal prep) through them to completely clean out everything. As an additional preventative measure I injected waxoil into all of the closed areas of the structure as after dipping any protective internal coatings are now gone.
I mentioned earlier that we had our blue car blasted in 1995 and the drifting out of the blast media stopped after it set thru a flood back in 1997. I talked with a Tiger owner at the United that has media drifting out. Our cars that have been dipped had braces installed in the door openings. The doors, trunk lid, hood, bulk head braces and hood hinges were removed and dipped separately along with many other pieces. We have another Harrington body stripped and ready to go to the dipper in northern Ohio and since Harrington cut away the body panels except for about half of the rear fenders from the doors back it has some more bracing installed besides the door openings. The dipped cars have had the rust neutralized by the dipper and Doug used a 3M product for coating hidden areas. Doug's racks that he put the cars in prevented any sag. This car was rust free but had many hidden dents. The last photo is the finished body when I picked it up at Doug's and the other is the car after I finished assembly at my shop.
Austin Healer
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I was also advised to fabricate bracing to fit between the a-pillar (hinge pillar) and the B pillar (latch pillar). This was due to the weight of the solution more than anything. It took nearly 3 weeks and several trips through the various baths to remove all the crap on the bodyshell. In the end, I was very pleased with the dipping process, but the cost was easily 3 times what blasting would have been. It was near $4500 to dip my car and I had to drive from North Central Washington (50 miles from Canada) all the way to Portland, Ore. About 750 miles round trip and 4 mountain passes. As it was my personal car, and I was not counting the pennies... I could tolerate it. It's been a year and a half since the car was dipped. I've had no failure of paint or undercoating due to solution creep and I would do it again on a client's car. I dipped a Healey 30 years ago (a 3000 MK2 tri carb 2 seater, one of 141 centershift gearbox cars) at the same place and have had only one area in the frame where I had paint issues due to incomplete neutralization of the dipping solution... It has been easily rectified. Any car that comes in from a rusty climate (anywhere that uses road salt), or has gobs of paint, filler and undercoat, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend having the car dipped. The amount of labor involved to completely strip a car easily exceeds the cost, and in any event, there's nothing that can address internal corrosion.
As these cars are now approaching 60 years of age, there is a lot of stuff you simply cannot see, it makes sense to be a thorough as possible when restoring them. In 40 years, I've had ONE Healey that didn't require new sills and rockers due to internal rot. Knowing how Pressed Steel built bodies, and how Jensen finished them... it's a wonder any of them has lasted this long.
As I have said, many times, the final result and cost have to be taken into account. You get what you pay for.
As these cars are now approaching 60 years of age, there is a lot of stuff you simply cannot see, it makes sense to be a thorough as possible when restoring them. In 40 years, I've had ONE Healey that didn't require new sills and rockers due to internal rot. Knowing how Pressed Steel built bodies, and how Jensen finished them... it's a wonder any of them has lasted this long.
As I have said, many times, the final result and cost have to be taken into account. You get what you pay for.
The problem we've run into is that the dipping does not remove the solder on the seams. We had one car that was blasted prior to the car in 1995 and when Doug removed the solder there were very large rust holes . We trashed that car due to rust. Doug removed the solder on this green car because he welds the seam because of the spot welds, builds it up and grinds it down. We have one low mileage car that has been repainted once by a local shop and now has a seam with an original solder joint showing a crack. The dipper that has said they could dip the Harrington body in the next few months is maybe a three hour drive and has estimated cost to be close to $5000. This body has sill rust and some of the usual lower fender rot. It was parked sometime in the 70's or early 80's until she bought it in 1989 and we took it apart which included removing the Harrington roof and it's set in one of our garages since the early 90's. It also set thru the flood. The wife bought a complete set of panels from Chris Lund in Canada and they seem to be pretty close to the original profile. The car was raced locally by a dealer in the D.C. area. Whenever it's dipped she hopes there isn't too much rust because it still has the old roll bar mounts on the package tray and in the passenger foot well so I hope that doesn't go away if there's rust underneath. There is a large dent on the right front and we're hoping there aren't more that show after being dipped.
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Dipping seams to be the popular choice at the moment. Personally I think there can be problems doing this. Quite often the body shell will be immersed in acid to remove rust etc. The problems can arise when the neutralising solution is just sprayed over the car to wash the acid off. In the places where this does not reach, acid residue remains.
The last few projects I have done, I hand stripped the outer panels with paint stripper and had the underside, inside and engine bay soda blasted. The residual baking soda found can be easily washed away if necessary.
The last few projects I have done, I hand stripped the outer panels with paint stripper and had the underside, inside and engine bay soda blasted. The residual baking soda found can be easily washed away if necessary.
The shop that has done body restorations for me always had what he called a "wash party". Several locals showed up and scrubbed the car by hand to make sure there was no dipping residue.
How do they ensure the residue is removed from inside the box sections , cruciform and chassis rails etc?
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