Dan Walters Torque Arm
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tonythetiger
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Dans TA
A bit late getting in on the thread but I did email Dan as I wasnt aware of cost until reading it here.So add my order. Sure wish such a solution was available and I had known of it, had there been in 1972. I thought a Tiger was part basketball and changed lanes like a point guard from DUKE but 331 gears and a big cammed 289 was way to much fun for a 19 YO and at 60 theres not enough - well maybe riding or driving Dukes face remover. Cheers,TtT
A bit late getting in on the thread but I did email Dan as I wasnt aware of cost until reading it here.So add my order. Sure wish such a solution was available and I had known of it, had there been in 1972. I thought a Tiger was part basketball and changed lanes like a point guard from DUKE but 331 gears and a big cammed 289 was way to much fun for a 19 YO and at 60 theres not enough - well maybe riding or driving Dukes face remover. Cheers,TtT
TigerBlue
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Torque arm basics
The function of the (long) arm of this device is to prevent the pinion gear from climbing the ring gear instead of turning the ring gear. The ring gear of course must turn the axles, wheels and tires. All these bits have inertia and the tires grip the road which is not going to move with all the HP in the world.
Assuming nothing breaks (and no torque arm) the front of dif will take advantage of the give in the springs locating the axle housing. As the the front of the dif rises the springs resist more and more until the power is controlled and then they rebound. This action creates what we call wheel hop, that annoying series of bounces and lurching until eventually the initial shock of dropping the clutch dampens out.
The rear, strong end of the Torque arm attaches rigidly to the differential. A collar around the front behind the input yoke. And a frame extending under the dif and attaching with the cover retainers.
The arm (a lever actually) is fixed to this frame and so must move a significant amount upward for any small amount of rise at the pinion. But the front end is in a bushing in a collar welded to the (strong) underside of the cross braced body structure. (None of the energy is moving fore or aft like with traction masters.)
With this in place the upward movement (and any rebound) of the pinion trying to climb the ring gear ends with all the power driving through to the wheels and tires. No hops. No need for traction masters.
I have heard Dan W. say more than once that this device was designed to control hopping out of 1st gear turns when auto crossing and road racing. It was not specifically designed for drag racing. High rpm clutch drops with racing slicks may cause problems over time? But what else is new? That sort of advice applies to everything on the car.
BTW "Torque steer" has been mentioned and I do not see this torque arm device changing any thing.
First correctly torque steer can be applied to powerful front wheel drive cars but I do not think there is any cure for the fish tailing of a rear wheel drive car other than the driver.
Also every one knows that with an open (no posi or ltd slip) differential it is the right rear tire that goes up in smoke. There must be more traction on the left rear? Maybe that is also the result of the change in direction of rotation in the differential. Also consider that lateral grip back there is minimal when the the tires are braking loose in a haze of smoke.
Last thought is the steering corrections are applied up front meaning we do not get immediate feedback as to whether the correction was just right, too much or too little. And correct again? and again? Think drifting? with practice those guys steer with wheel and the gas pedal and make it look easy.
Rick
The function of the (long) arm of this device is to prevent the pinion gear from climbing the ring gear instead of turning the ring gear. The ring gear of course must turn the axles, wheels and tires. All these bits have inertia and the tires grip the road which is not going to move with all the HP in the world.
Assuming nothing breaks (and no torque arm) the front of dif will take advantage of the give in the springs locating the axle housing. As the the front of the dif rises the springs resist more and more until the power is controlled and then they rebound. This action creates what we call wheel hop, that annoying series of bounces and lurching until eventually the initial shock of dropping the clutch dampens out.
The rear, strong end of the Torque arm attaches rigidly to the differential. A collar around the front behind the input yoke. And a frame extending under the dif and attaching with the cover retainers.
The arm (a lever actually) is fixed to this frame and so must move a significant amount upward for any small amount of rise at the pinion. But the front end is in a bushing in a collar welded to the (strong) underside of the cross braced body structure. (None of the energy is moving fore or aft like with traction masters.)
With this in place the upward movement (and any rebound) of the pinion trying to climb the ring gear ends with all the power driving through to the wheels and tires. No hops. No need for traction masters.
I have heard Dan W. say more than once that this device was designed to control hopping out of 1st gear turns when auto crossing and road racing. It was not specifically designed for drag racing. High rpm clutch drops with racing slicks may cause problems over time? But what else is new? That sort of advice applies to everything on the car.
BTW "Torque steer" has been mentioned and I do not see this torque arm device changing any thing.
First correctly torque steer can be applied to powerful front wheel drive cars but I do not think there is any cure for the fish tailing of a rear wheel drive car other than the driver.
Also every one knows that with an open (no posi or ltd slip) differential it is the right rear tire that goes up in smoke. There must be more traction on the left rear? Maybe that is also the result of the change in direction of rotation in the differential. Also consider that lateral grip back there is minimal when the the tires are braking loose in a haze of smoke.
Last thought is the steering corrections are applied up front meaning we do not get immediate feedback as to whether the correction was just right, too much or too little. And correct again? and again? Think drifting? with practice those guys steer with wheel and the gas pedal and make it look easy.
Rick
Last edited:
the_tool_man
Gold forum user
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- 196
This one is simple. The engine torque is sent to the rear axle, requiring an equal and opposite torque reaction from the contact patches of the tires and the suspension attachment points to the axle. The result is an effective weight transfer from the right side of the axle to the left. All things being equal, the right side tire has less "weight" on it, so it develops less grip.
I am interested in ordering one of these torque arms. But, I have another question about it. Does the connection between the arm and the forward chassis mount allow for some longitudinal compliance? In my experience (admittedly with a coil-sprung axle, not leaf), a small amount of front-to-rear compliance is needed to prevent binding as the suspension articulates while accelerating.
An observation: It is pretty impressive that this torque arm will hold up to Duke's massive torque monster of an engine. The one I ran on my less powerful Mustang was far more substantial. Nice work, indeed.
Regards,
John.
TigerBlue
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Yes it can move for and aft.
" Does the connection between the arm and the forward chassis mount allow for some longitudinal compliance? " Absolutely.
I also had a Torque Arm (Griggs) on my SVT Cobra. Completely different animal. IIRC it replaced the lower control arms of the multi link rear suspension. Needed a bridge girder panard rod too.
RE: holding up to monster motors. The variables which increase the initial "HIT" or "SHOCK" on the T Arm and all the drive train are:
1. the weight and rpm of the flywheel when the clutch drops.
2. the clamping ability of the clutch.
3. the static grip of the contact patch of the the tires.
The engine power is a factor after the initial violence.
Rick
" Does the connection between the arm and the forward chassis mount allow for some longitudinal compliance? " Absolutely.
I also had a Torque Arm (Griggs) on my SVT Cobra. Completely different animal. IIRC it replaced the lower control arms of the multi link rear suspension. Needed a bridge girder panard rod too.
RE: holding up to monster motors. The variables which increase the initial "HIT" or "SHOCK" on the T Arm and all the drive train are:
1. the weight and rpm of the flywheel when the clutch drops.
2. the clamping ability of the clutch.
3. the static grip of the contact patch of the the tires.
The engine power is a factor after the initial violence.
Rick
the_tool_man
Gold forum user
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- 196
Yep. I used Maximum Motorsports stuff, but same story (eliminated upper arms, not lower). Completely transformed the car from stock. This has me wondering if anyone has used a panhard bar/TA, and replaced the leafs with two links and coilovers. Hmmm...
Sorry O/T.
I hear back from him every four or five days. He is busy gathering up the parts he will need to fill all the orders that have been emailed to him. He will need to machine some of the rear brackets, re-stock isolators, etc. but he is definitely moving forward. He seems very happy to be making these again.
Cheers! Mike
Cheers! Mike
the_tool_man
Gold forum user
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- 196
I emailed him the other day. He responded within a couple of hours. I got the impression he is quite busy; perhaps even overwhelmed by the amount of interest in his T/A kits. I'm in no big hurry, so I'll volunteer for the back of the line.
Final Call March 16th
Torque Arm update...
Heard from Dan Walters today and he needs to finalize the Torque Arm orders so he can provision accordingly. So, if you expressed interest or placed an order with Dan and have not yet sent him your deposit, he is asking that you do so as soon as possible as he is going to close the order book and start building on March 16th. If you are mailing him a check, especially from outside of North America, you may want to send him an email letting him know its on the way.
Cheers! Mike
Torque Arm update...
Heard from Dan Walters today and he needs to finalize the Torque Arm orders so he can provision accordingly. So, if you expressed interest or placed an order with Dan and have not yet sent him your deposit, he is asking that you do so as soon as possible as he is going to close the order book and start building on March 16th. If you are mailing him a check, especially from outside of North America, you may want to send him an email letting him know its on the way.
Cheers! Mike
I also received an email, he now has Paypal for payment. The problem I have, is nowhere on this posting is any mention of what the deposit is. I have sent Dan a response requesting the deposit amount.
Cheers Steve
the_tool_man
Gold forum user
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He will take Paypal, but you either have to pay the Paypal fee (~$8), or send the money as a gift. A stamp is cheaper.
As far as a deposit, I assumed we had to pay in full, in advance. I never saw anything to indicate otherwise.
As far as a deposit, I assumed we had to pay in full, in advance. I never saw anything to indicate otherwise.
Deposit
Hey Steve. I believe Dan is asking for a $50 deposit to secure each order but it would be worthwhile for interested parties to contact him directly to confirm. I too sent him the full $250 so he would be able to ship to me as soon as it was finished.
Cheers! Mike
Hey Steve. I believe Dan is asking for a $50 deposit to secure each order but it would be worthwhile for interested parties to contact him directly to confirm. I too sent him the full $250 so he would be able to ship to me as soon as it was finished.
Cheers! Mike
I sent the full amount by PayPal. And I payed the fees. Sending a international bank payment requires all sorts of bank information of the seller as well as the fee. Easier to spend the extra few $ and have paypal foward the money instantly.
Invite to Dan
Hey Duke.
Great idea re: invite for Dan. When I communicate with him, he generally just grants me approval to put his thoughts forward, as I believe he is kept pretty busy and doesn't have a lot of spare "computer access time". I do believe however, that he has been reading along with us all.
With the above said... Dan, please feel free to jump in any time you like. I'm sure everyone would welcome your participation.
Cheers! Mike
Hey Duke.
Great idea re: invite for Dan. When I communicate with him, he generally just grants me approval to put his thoughts forward, as I believe he is kept pretty busy and doesn't have a lot of spare "computer access time". I do believe however, that he has been reading along with us all.
With the above said... Dan, please feel free to jump in any time you like. I'm sure everyone would welcome your participation.
Cheers! Mike